What to Do When Things Need to Change In Your Marriage || with Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife

Have you ever felt like your personal growth is at odds with your role within your relationship? In today's episode, I'm joined by Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife to explore this challenging dynamic. We delve into the intricacies of how traditional roles and covert expectations can hinder personal development, especially for women. Dr. Finlayson-Fife shares valuable insights on how to become a change maker in your relationship, emphasizing the importance of honest communication and mutual growth. This conversation is a must-listen for anyone striving for a more balanced and fulfilling partnership.

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TRANSCRIPT

Monica Packer: Dr. Jennifer Finlays and Fife. Welcome to about progress.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Thanks for having me.

Monica Packer: It's been a while. I appreciate that you'd be willing to come back on. Today we're gonna be talking about something really tricky, but also really necessary, you know, over the years. In our chats, we've talked about how you're a sex and marriage therapist, but a large part of helping people through sex is actually working through the relationship in their mind and what's going on with that?

So it's not actually about the sex. Um, and similarly, but not similarly, I guess. I work with women on personal development.

But what we often have to work on is their relationships,

you know, with other people. So I'm sure you see this all the time, that one of the biggest obstacles that women face to their personal development is actually their husbands.

And there's no real nice way to say that. It's just

there's a lot going on there. There's a lot of reasons why. I'd actually like to start with why you think that is the case,

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: I don't know if I would

Monica Packer: say

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: say that the husband is the problem, because I would say that the couple has, whether implicitly or explicitly come to an agreement about how to do family life.

Now one person wants to change it. And I wouldn't say that's necessarily a problem. I would say that's kind of normal.

It's just maybe not an easy negotiation to

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And, um, is that I feel more sense of self in the marriage. I feel more a sense of who I am and I feel like my spouse isn't. I. Wanting to deal with the marriage isn't wanting to deal with the ways that I'm changing or evolving. here's where I might validate the idea of it being a problem, is that I think that perhaps both because of biology and upbringing, women tend to be more oriented to,

the children, the household. Um, you know, both that our identities are kind of more attached to success in those domains often than it is for men. Men sometimes more attached to what they're achieving in the out outside world. Also women's minds are more tracking what other people want. It's a survival thing for a baby, for a mother to be able to anticipate needs and track them.

So it's a great gift actually. Where a lot of men are genuinely just not tracking those things. But of course it can be a real problem because it's hard to disentangle your sense yourself and your choices from what everybody else wants, your children, your husband, you know, and so that misalignment of intelligence in some sense, and, and.

Monica Packer: and

Tracking of what is needed can create more conflict on this front.

it.

You know, especially if a woman's trying to separate herself from from it. Mm-hmm.

Thanks for being willing to go that direction with more of the pragmatic side. Uh, you also brought up more of that autonomy piece and how it relates to some of these deeper issues that even the woman has,

Monica Packer: um, and how she's perceiving changes and how her husband is perceiving these changes within herself and how that relates to their relationship

shifting as well.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah, so I mean, I see this a lot. So I, I teach a women's course, called The Art of Desire, and

the, the goal of the course is often to help women basically reconnect to their internal compass. Um, because, you know, as I was saying a minute ago that

Monica Packer: for

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: for both reasons of biology and often how we're enculturated, we're very much often pleasing and we're trying to.

Make other people happy with us, and we're trying to do what we, we, we track somebody's unhappiness or dysregulation, which is again, a gift, but

it, it makes it so that a lot of

women, and this happens for men too, of course, but a lot of women are sort of under identified with their own desires, their own sense of self, their own gifts, and kind of over identified with what is wanted from them.

It's not unusual for that to get old.

Monica Packer: Huh? certain point.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Now, again, there's a lot of strength in it. It's part of being an attuned parent. Okay?

But there's a certain point where women often start to feel like, Hey, wait a minute. Like I,

especially when you're like, I'm giving, giving, giving, hoping, this will eventually come back to me in gratitude.

Eventually, because I give so much, my husband will, want to give me the things that matter to me. So, especially when we have covert contracts around it in our mind, and those don't work out. A lot of times women go into some crisis with themselves, with the way they've related to themselves. They start building resentment and they're trying to find a path that feels less self-denying,

and that's a kind of normal part of women's development.

I mean, when you hit that point may be different for you. But there's a certain point at which you start growing out of the desire to keep everybody happy, and you start growing into the desire to be happier with yourself and to forge aspects of yourself that are not related to taking care of others.

And so oftentimes at that point. Women are unhappy with their husbands, they are

unhappy with, why am I unloading the dishwasher? You know, I've also worked all day. You know, they're, they're kind of in this like,

ah, you know, like,

I'm being taken for granted. And, you know, women have often been unwittingly complicit in that because they were

wanting, needing to be needed and wanting to fulfill those roles on some level.

But it's no longer working for them, and they're, they're trying to. Figure out how do I make more space for myself, both psychologically and logistically? And that is not always easy, especially when the people who have benefited from that accommodation are like, don't rock the boat. Like, what's, what's your problem?

You know?

Monica Packer: Yeah. Like, like

you said, it's working great for me. I, you know, thought

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah. Yeah.

Monica Packer: was a smooth sailing ship.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah, I remember a couple coming into me once and the husband was like, I'm, you know, we're very happy. You know, like as a couple, the only problem is she is miserable and, you know, it wasn't maybe quite that abject, but he, but it was basically what he was saying, like, like, there's not a problem except she's quite depressed and miserable.

And I'm like, that's a, that's a pretty big problem, especially if it is a marriage. You know,

her happiness matters, of course. And. I think sometimes the mistake, I don't know if that's quite the right word, but maybe the first step that women often make in this, uh, or anybody that's been in a kind of one down position is they go into a kind of angry sort of one up response.

Like, it's my turn. You know? Like, no, I'm not doing that anymore. A little bit like, and there's truth in it, but a little bit like everybody's been taking this from me and I'm really upset. Um. And, and then

Monica Packer: rebellious teenager, right? Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: a little bit like a rebellion. And you know, I think that's kind of where people maybe have to start.

Sometimes you need enough anger about it to get the energy to go in and try and do something different. Another place people can go is they get angry about it, but they are afraid to actually speak up about anything or address it. So it just goes into kind of a brittle resentment and there, you know, and it kind of gets stuck there.

Um, because they feel taken from, even though they're having a hard time finding, how do I stand up for better?

How do I

ask for better? I think the mistake in both of those situations that we often make is the idea, and again, there's truth in it, but I think we over, um, believe this idea is that my husband holds the power to my agency.

My husband holds the power to my development, and so then it's easy to try to get it from him because he is taking it from you, is the idea. Now I understand there is some truth in the idea because it's like if, if you know, let's just say the metaphorical, they're leaving their dishes in the sink and they're not cleaning up after themselves, and then they leave for the day and you want a clean house.

Okay, well, there's, yes, there's a way in which. By almost default, your time is being kind of sucked into these other things. But, I think we make the most progress when we start to realize I am the architect of my life.

I am the chooser, and nobody's going to give me that clarity.

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: going to grant me

strength.

I have to be willing to tolerate the invalidation of standing up for what I think would actually be better for me. And by extension, if it is truly better for you, it is also better for your family. Okay. And, and I think we obvious put it in the, selfless, selfish, or

Monica Packer: either or

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah, either you're okay or I'm okay, and it's time for me to finally be okay.

And

if you are betraying yourself, it's impacting your relationship to your kids and your spouse, it's, it's certainly gonna affect your intimate relationship, not just sexually, but emotionally too, because you feel resentment or you don't feel like an equal, or you don't feel like you're being treated like an equal.

So you can't have a thriving marriage if you really do feel that you're in a one down position. There's no virtue in it.

 On the other hand, we can swing into the, oh, now I'm gonna take, I'm, I'm gonna be irresponsible. I'm not gonna fulfill my responsibility to my children or my spouse, or whatever, because it's, it's me time, you know, it's my turn.

And I also think that's a mistake because if we betray our own responsibilities, what we know is in fact our responsibility, we also betray ourselves. They really are two sides of the same coin. So happy families are finding a way for everyone in there to thrive. And that, you know, I understand about there's timing.

Like when my kids were small, I, I wouldn't say I wasn't thriving, but I, I was, I was giving up a lot of things because it wasn't really the most important thing. They, their survival, their wellbeing was more important for now. Right? But then at a certain point, it, it was able to shift and there was more space for me to pursue other things that mattered to me.

And so I, I understand that part,

but

in a family system that works well, people are able to develop their gifts in time. People are able to, um, both support and be supported.

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And, you know, I can't remember if we talked about this, but in our last interview, but like just my mom at the end of her life took up dancing like in the last two years of her life.

And.

She'd come and sat while her kids were on stages, clapped for us, all these things. And it was really quite, meaningful for me that at 90 she was on that stage and her kids were all there clapping for her. And you know, it's just kind of a symbolic, she did many things at the end of her life that

in raising lots of children she had not done.

But thankfully, even my dad was able to move from the one being supported to the supporter. On other endeavors that she was doing.

And each of them grow into a richer sense of who they were for my dad to also grow into the supportive role, not just the one being supported. Mm-hmm. But it's, it's not an easy transition.

It, it take, it takes some negotiation and some conflict because.

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: They're often both identities that men and women are often unfamiliar with, like the husband. Like, what do you mean do the dishes? Like,

you know,

I mean, I think more modern men, meaning, meaning men that are coming of age now are maybe a little more accustomed to that idea than, you know, men of, of my mom's generation.

But,

but,

I think that it's still a renegotiation. Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: Yeah, I think even in the most modern and

most recent of

marriages and relationships, it's still something that these, um, expectations sneak in. And like you said, they're so co covert that you don't even realize you're both

operating in them until you get to a place where I think the resentment and,

you know, perhaps as part of that, the anger can, um, show you its time and other things can show you the. It's time too, which you teach so well in the art of desire is, is even being in tune with those desires again and recognizing, oh, I do have things I want to do in my life, and things I want to explore and, and who I want to be too. Um, so we've kind of, we've talked more about the conundrum here, right?

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: Um, Roski in her book Fair Play, her research shows that there needs to be a change maker. In most relationships, like there needs to be someone who's willing to raise their hand

and say, I don't like the status quo, or the status quo isn't working for me anymore. Yeah.

Or for us or for our family.

Like, because, you know, it all works together. Uh, and I wanna paint a picture of a change maker

that is not the resentful. Angry, kind of rebellious change maker, although, like you said, that could be part of this, you know? But let's, let's talk about what it looks like to be a, a good change maker. One that is doing so from a place of wisdom, but also strength,

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: well, I guess in some ways I do wanna validate the messier version, and I do wanna get to like what, what

Monica Packer: yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: feel like and look like. But the reason why it's usually messy is because you're both trying to figure out a new way. It's, it's, I think something that can help is kind of like, you didn't do this to me.

Um. We co-created a marriage that's no longer working in its current form. I, I just think that helps because if it's like, you did this to me, I don't think that's fair or honest. And also is not gonna create the right context in which to change something because, you know, like, just as an example, I remember when I chose to stay home.

Monica Packer: home

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Instead of taking a job that had mattered to me, I chose to stay home. My husband was traveling a lot, had a special needs child, a newborn, and I was overwhelmed. And I wanted very much to resent my husband because it would give me, I don't know how to say it, but just like a target for my overwhelm. And I knew it wasn't honest, but I still wanted to do it.

But when I had more honest moments, I was like,

even though this is so hard. It's still the hard that I feel good about, or even if you're at the point where you wanna change it, to say it is the hard that I still chose up to that point, but now

it's not working. Now it feels different. Now we're in a pattern that needs to evolve and I, I just think that's much better than somebody put me here.

I have no,

even if you got, they're out of being taught that you shouldn't want other things. That can be hard if you were learned like somehow to, once anything other than being a mother makes you a bad person. You can feel really hijacked and upset about that.

But

probably you and your husband both bought into that idea, right?

So, so you, you created something out of that. And that doesn't mean that you can't ask for different, right. You certainly can. It just gives a little layer of forgiveness to the fact that something new needs to happen and allows you to not come in there just as you are the problem, but

Monica Packer: but mm-hmm.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: a problem

that I

want to have.

Be different.

Monica Packer: want you,

so that speaks to ownership, which

is something I learned a great deal from you, of owning what we want, but also owning what we wanted, uh, owning our choices.

Both in the p the the past and how it affects the present.

Um, but as part of that, still owning that you want things to change now.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: exactly. And so it just kind of takes the, defensiveness down on the other side, but it also keeps clear in your own mind that I am an agent. That is,

I am a chooser in my life. I don't have to live in the fear or the fantasy that other people are going to determine my future.

 So I think in that mindset, you know, as much as we can hold onto it, it might be helpful, Monica, to do a little bit of a role play. Like me being somebody starting to talk about it. And you may be being a reluctant husband, and then we can just see how we handle this. Um, you know. Okay. So husband, I'm gonna call you Tom, just so we have a name, but, um,

um, I.

Monica Packer: I. been feeling more frustrated lately and some resentment lately, about how the family jobs are being allocated and done, and especially because I'm wanting to take on new projects. I'm wanting to develop other parts of myself and I feel so burdened by the demands of the household. The kids. And

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: I think the thing that drives some of the resentment is I can, I feel like you just assume it and you just, you just assume I'll be the one to dash out and get the kid after practice or, yeah. And

that's starting to not work for me anymore.

Monica Packer: For me, so I'm the husband

here, right? Yeah. And I'm trying not to go to the full stereotype of being like, then get outta here. There's the door. I, I think I could imagine Tom having some resistance to that and saying something like, you know, I work hard too. I, I have barely any time. As soon as I'm done working, I feel like I'm. Rolling up my sleeves and helping out. I never saw my dad do what I do with the kids and around the house, and I just dunno how I could do things different. Like, what, what would that even look like? Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: You, you do work hard. I mean, I don't question it at all. And I'm grateful honestly for what you make possible in our family yeah, that's not in question for me. I think it's that it was like, it was one thing when I was just had kids underfoot. You were so busy 'cause you were just starting in your job and so on.

Like for me to clean up after you, I'm just gonna make up stuff here. But for me to clean it just kind of made more sense because that's like all I was doing and you were out straight and I was out straight and it just kind of wasn't worth it to be like, Hey, you forgot to load your stuff or to ask you to clean a bathroom because.

You know, I could hold onto a baby while I was doing it, but now that you're more in a more stable place with your job and the kids are getting older, I, I feel like the kind of,

the assumptions are still in place that we intuitively set up in the beginning. And I, I wanna develop other parts of myself. I feel so trapped at times by.

These assumptions and, and the kids too. I, I, you know, they kind of are accustomed to me being the one to run the homework over or whatever when they forget it.

Monica Packer: it.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And I'm just,

I'm not blaming you, I'm just recognizing I, I need to start asking for things to be different here because I'm starting to feel like this is getting old. It's no longer needed in this way that we've been doing it.

Monica Packer: Okay. Well, what would you like to look different?

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Well, before we go to that, can I just ask you like, do you think what I'm saying is fair?

Monica Packer: fair? I don't know. When you said like, you feel trapped, that's how I feel too. You know, I just, I, I would love to not do all that we do every day. I, I would like more time for myself or to, to go out with my friends and to explore my interests.

Like, I think about going back to school, so I'm just not sure how it can look, but I'm trying to be open and see more what you would even like to change.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: So, so you're saying, I just wanna make sure I'm following you, Tom. You're saying you, you feel like you're as trapped as I am.

Monica Packer: as I'm Yeah,

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Are you, are you sure? I mean, are you sure that you feel as trapped as I am, or you just don't like the idea of having more to do? I mean, what I mean is I, I feel like when you come home at the end of the day, you get more free time than I do.

Monica Packer: Well, what do you mean? Like I feel like I'm just helping out.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah. Yeah, that, exactly. So that is, I feel like I get up and I work all day long and then I work all evening long

and you come home and you get a break. Now, just as an aside, I'm just gonna pause because I think, I think women do need to really think about this a little bit because you have, 'cause a lot of women do get a lot of breaks during the day, right?

And so, you know, they may need to figure out, am I taking a condition? That's really fair Mm-hmm. he is working a lot of hours and it is working for us financially for him to do that. 'cause I think it helps it and there's people who've written way more and thought about this way more than I have, but you know, so it might be helpful to consult some of those thinkers about this, but one of the questions I'm often thinking about is like, is the sense of is, is free time pretty similar between the two of us, is the kind of freedom to pursue something else that rejuvenates you similar.

Um, another question to ask is, am I over-functioning? Meaning I'm doing things for other people that they really could do for themselves? Right. And, and I'm doing it because they're used to it and I like the maybe needing to be needed or I like the control of just getting it done, uh,

Monica Packer: way, the way I

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: in my way, exactly the way I like it.

And then there's a little bit of an indulgent resentment. But in truth, I am choosing to do all those extra things.

Um, or is it true that this is really not a fair alignment of tasks and it really does need to be thought through again?

Monica Packer: Well, and with

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: do I need to just take more responsibility on during the day when the do less have The house looks so perfect.

Right. Go. You know, I'm just

Monica Packer: Yeah. Make those trade. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah. And just go pursue something that I really can pursue, and maybe we need to get childcare a couple days a week or whatever, but, but that I can, like, I can carve out space if I want to. Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah.

Monica Packer: Well, you're, you're a good actress. I mean, I was just like trying to keep a straight face, but the, one of the things I, you could see me kind of busting up over is when I was like, I help out as

soon as I'm done. And, and we both know Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: yeah,

Monica Packer: That what that means. I

think it's part of the signifying of like,

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: This is your job and I'm helping you.

Monica Packer: and I'm helping out, I babysit the kids sometimes. So you can go out. We're like, trigger words.

Trigger words. Alert. Alert. Uh, but yeah, I think as part of that, the shifts are the responsibilities that we have taken on whether they were overt or covert,

are needing to be shifted,

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yep.

Monica Packer: um, inward and outward.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah. And I think

a pretty open negotiation about what does that mean, what does that look like? You know, um, you know, do we have it in our budget to hire some help if the breadwinner really is like that straight out , so that they're not cleaning bathrooms and, and if you can't afford such a thing as to have a little more help or does it mean, um, okay.

Like. Really for us both because what I think the couple has to come to is a clear desire for both to thrive and for the marriage to feel fair.

Monica Packer: Okay.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And that is part of

what I think we can sometimes undervalue is what husbands in a traditional role are taking on in terms of the work in the day to day. We can also kind of just take that as a given and.

And not sort of

appreciate, what would that be like for me to have to be at work every day at eight 30 or whatever it is, and have to have these projects in and done? I mean, I'm not, I'm not trying to say, but there's a lot of advantages to being someone who's at home and

there are hard things about it too.

But I think like if our goal is that we're both thriving, that we're both doing hard things, but we're also both belonging to aspects of ourselves that matter to us. What's that gonna look like and how can I take as the woman in this deeper responsibility for that happening? And this is what would really help me.

You know, even if you were to just cover, you know, this thing, if you were to do dinner on these nights, it would free me up to be able to use my morning in a different way, whatever it is. You know? I'm just making a step here. But I'm just saying like, if your goal is how, how do I actually have time that I can carve out, that I can work on project or I can.

Go back to school or I can, you know, that you're really thinking about how, how do we kind of share this burden of,

and I don't mean a burden in a negative way, but we both decided to have a family.

We need to provide for them both economically and logistically and emotionally, and, and, and we both wanna belong to our own autonomy.

And so how do we renegotiate that now in the current set of needs? And it's gonna be a different renegotiation later. You know, I have a friend who was like,

kind of went into some of that resentment. She, she'd done all the full-time caregiving. Her husband's at the height of his career, she's like, like I, I feel like I'm out of a job.

I'm out of a vocation. I feel really disoriented by it.

So there was some struggle for a while, but then she found her footing and she found, you know, a job and a kind of direction that was fulfilling for her.

Monica Packer: was fulfill for her.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Her kids were now adults. So when they would come home, she's just like, everybody gets a different night, you know?

So it was just like a renegotiation now as adult children that if you're here, you are responsible for dinner, you know?

and you get at least one night or however many kids there were. And you know, just like that kind of,

1. That, that as the family continues to grow this balance between caregiving versus, you know, this balance in responsibilities is gonna be changing.

Monica Packer: And I know we, we, we spoke a great deal to the traditional model, and that's not to, to

neglect all the others.

So let's just say like, know this

and, and apply that to yourself. But I often see this shift, this change making need to happen as women. Um, those who have been able to stay home or chose to stay home, then go to work

and they're coming home and

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: a real change.

Monica Packer: Yeah, the, all the same

home tasks when they get home, and you know this, but there's that when the kids become adults and they come back to visit or if, you know, there's so many different reasons why changes need to happen within a

marriage, within a household,

and no matter what, it's gonna keep changing.

So we have to get good at

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: You have to get good at talking about it, thinking about it, thinking about what's my role in this? Thinking about what needs to be different for me to be at peace with this and not just being in the easy, and it's not really easy 'cause it costs, but the covert resentment Mm-hmm. you know, just like anger that other people aren't waking up to this in the same way.

Especially if you're the one who's been shouldering more of the burden. That's usually who the change maker is. 'cause they're like, okay. This is, this is getting to be too heavy. I'm ready to do it differently. And people can be reluctant to take more burden onto themselves even when it's the most right thing to do.

But to really be standing up for what's gonna ultimately allow the family to thrive

is to stand up for that. This is no longer my burden. This is no longer right for me to keep carrying it. Again, we have to look at our own, you know, I, I like to be needed. I like to feel that, you know, I like things to go the way I like them.

So, you know, I, it, it's easy to be like, why aren't people helping me, even though, could you do it exactly the way I want you to do it?

You know, which is very different.

Monica Packer: point checklist for you to

follow.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: for you to do your part, you know, it just, yeah. Which is very different than, Hey, can this, this is your responsibility. You can figure out, you know what that's like, but I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna carry that responsibility anymore.

That's a different move. And so sometimes we're complicit in our resentments, um, because we need to be needed.

Monica Packer: Hmm. Which is something I don't think we tend to want to see in ourselves.

Just like, you know, in our role play there, little Timmy Tom, like, he didn't really wanna see, oh wait, actually I do have more free time

than you. Or, I just, I'm chipping in not without realizing, wait, these are my kids too. You know, stuff

like that. Yeah,

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: right, exactly. Because we, you know, human beings are so good. We're at telling ourselves stories that justify what we're doing. And one of the reasons we avoid difficult conversations is because conflict is never easy.

Monica Packer: easy

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Dealing with another person's point of view is never fun, but it also is often gonna help us see something about ourselves.

We couldn't see through the other person's eyes until, until they start to speak about it, you know, because Tom might say, but

you get to go play tennis with your friends. You get to go to lunch. Like, I don't have that. Okay.

I'm making this up, but let's just say that that's true.

You take it as a given, you know, and then you get concerned about the dishwasher at night, but I don't, you know, and you might not like that conversation.

You might be like, how dare you say that, because I'm so busy with the kids. But oftentimes it's in the collision of those two worldviews that you figure out what's really true and what's really the most fair and right thing.

And so.

it's like how do we work through those meanings to come up again with what our goal is?

Is that

We're both being fair to one another. We're carrying burdens even if they're in different forms, and that we're working together to be able to belong to ourselves as well. Not just the ways that we're needed, but to be able to be true to our own autonomy on some level.

And that's just, that's an inherent tension to all relationships.

So nothing is strange about that. Uh. It's, and I think the more we can understand it as normal and that it's going to be a ongoing conversation as things evolve and change, I think the more we can, um, tolerate the, the push and pull of that and push ourselves to get at what really is fair and what can I really kind of back up inside of myself, even if.

 It's not all the autonomy that I might want because, but I know it's the be most right thing for now. Yeah.

Monica Packer: I think the set kind of path they can follow here is , in order to be a change maker in your home, you need to be a change maker first with yourself.

To have that willingness to, to

know and acknowledge what you want and need to also take ownership of the choices you've made and the choices you want to make now, and then to move into being the change maker within a relationship, which, which involves time and

communication and negotiation. And then you're gonna do it again. You're gonna

do it again.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: a hundred percent. And when you're parenting, you know, you're, you're renegotiating in some sense the roles as like, from a 9-year-old to a 17-year-old, or often very different.

Roles and relationships and how you think because they're becoming more of their own person with their own thoughts, ideas, beliefs, desires, and so those, that ability to enter into those conversations, um, it's just a skill that's really essential to growing relationships.

Monica Packer: Yeah. And this is where we're going back to what you said earlier is this is the thing that is going to make not only your life better, but your relationship with your spouse better and with your whole family. And that's ultimately the why behind

being a change maker.

It's the betterment of all.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Hundred percent. Yes, exactly.

Monica Packer: Jennifer, I think, um, I mean that's just the tip of the iceberg in many ways, like you said, but thankfully, I know you have some things coming down the pike for people. So what, what's

coming up in your world that they may want to know about before we ask our final question?

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: sure. I'm doing an Art of Desire three day workshop in, gilbert, Arizona, and it's the very last, it's like a Thursday, Friday. So last, I think it's the 24th, fifth and 6th of April.

I don't know when this will drop, but um, there may well still be seats when this comes out. And then, . I'm doing a lot of things, this little things this summer, but in the fall I have, , other retreats, a men's retreat, and then two couples retreats. So these are, if you feel like we don't have the skills to have these hard conversations, we have a hard time getting through conversations of conflict.

, my husband just thinks I'm ungrateful when I talk about these things, right? We may, you may be sending out a dynamic of a one up, one down that is hard to find your strength in that. And so the couples retreats are really good at helping people see their pattern of communication, their way of relating to challenges, and the self-awareness allows them to start to break that pattern and to engage in it differently.

So these in-person events are really good because you can get away from your kids and your work and just be immersed into a way of thinking about what's happening in your marriage and who you are and how you're participating in some of your challenges. And it really allows people to kind of move into a new way of thinking about how to make the marriage something that's a deeper place of friendship and, and peace.

Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: Okay, well, we'll be sure to link to your site as well as your Instagram and your podcasts that you have as well. So many great resources,

like there's so much there for people. Um, we always like to end the interview by asking about one thing they can take action on based off of what they learned. So what would that be?

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Well, it depends a little bit on where you are in this, but the one thing I would say is the kind of important driver of growth is to look at places where you feel resentment and to take that up with yourself because resentment can feel good. It makes us feel like we're a good person and, and. We're putting up with things because we're so good and

ous, you know, I don't know.

We, we can, we can get into our resentments and we can talk to people about our resentments.

What's much harder to do is to say, look, um, I'm choosing something that I don't feel good about. I'm going along with something that I don't feel good about.

Monica Packer: I'm

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: participating in a repeating pattern that I don't feel is good or good for me.

Okay,

so if I'm going to stop being complicit in it, what do I need to get clear about and what do I need to have a conversation about? So there are red flags for us. You know, there's something I'm not at peace with like I said earlier, either I have to confront myself and say like, Jennifer, you're being ridiculous of all my, uh.

Could be nice to myself, but like of all my choices, this is still what I want. Even though it's very hard, that's sort of like getting out of the indulgent suffering model, right? But if there's something where you're like, no, this really doesn't feel fair to me, or at least the way I understand it, it feels unfair.

So I, that means I need to go and have a difficult conversation perhaps, but to start being more honest about the fact that I'm not happy with the status quo and that I wanna.

Consider how we create something that feels more fair to me.

Monica Packer: me.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And again, the hard thing about that might be that they have perspectives you haven't accounted for or you don't want to account for, but as hard as that might be, it increases your chances of getting to something that actually feels viable and honest, and fair, and creates true peace in the couple.

Monica Packer: and co-created, which is something you brought up earlier, you know, to, to co-create what's, what's now

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah,

that's right. That's right.

Monica Packer: Well, thank you Jennifer. This has always, uh, been an illuminating conversation, so I appreciate you and your time Very much.

Yeah,

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah. My pleasure.

Monica Packer: my pleasure. Well done.

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