Sally is a podcaster and coming out coach sharing her story and her client’s stories with wisdom on handling big changes with your closest friends and family.
Today I invited my old friend on the show, Sally Osborne. Sally will share a little about her own story of making significant changes as an adult, and a LOT on how you can navigate the most important relationships you have even after you’ve changed.
Even if your story doesn’t mirror Sally’s, the lessons she’s gleaned from her own is powerful for all of us, whether you’re the loved one who has changed, or the one trying to show up better for someone who has. I’ve always been proud of how open this community is to learning from other people’s stories, and I know both Sal’s story and her wisdom will help you and those you love.
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TRANSCRIPT
Monica Packer: Welcome to about progress. I’m Monica packer, a regular mom and recovering perfectionist who covered the truest model to dramatic, but lasting personal growth it’s progress made practical. Join us to leave the extremes behind and instead learn how to do something to grow in ways that.
If you like this podcast, then you will love my new course called the sticky habit method. It’s all about how to form habits outside of perfectionism. And yes, it is possible. You can check it out at about progress.com/sticky habit method.
I just turned 36 and that may sound very old from some of you and young for others. But I was thinking about this the other day, and I can confidently say that I have changed more in the last 10 years than I did my first 26 years of life. Have you changed too? From your worldviews to your personality, to your beliefs, political or otherwise?
I know both from my own experience and from this community, and what I hear from you, that the hardest part about changing is how your loved ones struggle to navigate that change and vice versa. Sometimes we are lucky and there are relationships that change alongside us and other relationships that accept us no matter what.
But what about the people that matter so much to you, but they just don’t get you anymore or even worse. They flat out reject who you’ve become
Today I invited my old friend on the podcast, Sally Osborne. Sally will share a little bit about her own story of making significant changes as an adult and a lot on how you can navigate the most important relationships you have even after you’ve changed. Just like she has.
Sal is a podcaster with the peace out podcast. Coach to those who are coming out of the closet and/or religion. And is a mom, to a combined seven children with her new wife, Lena, she’s also one of the smartest, coolest and kindest people I know, and I feel so lucky to know her and share her with you today.
Even if your story doesn’t mirror, Sally’s the lessons she’s gleaned from her life are powerful for all of us, whether you’re the loved one who has changed or the one trying to show up better for someone who has. I’ve always been so proud of how open this community is to learning from other people’s stories.
And I know both Sal’s story and her wisdom will help you. And those you love as you navigate your relationships after you’ve changed.
Sally Osborne welcome to about progress.
Sally Osborne: Hey Monica, my old pal,
Monica Packer: I know I was thinking about this morning, just how far we go back. And I’m grateful for that history that we have in the friendship that we have. And I’m also really grateful to be talking to you today. As, as I was saying off the air, I’ve been thinking about this topic for a long time, and I knew that you were the person I wanted to have on to talk about it.
And it’s something that I’ve been seeing in my community. A lot, women are changing as we should all be changing across the spectrum of whatever that means. Women are trying to find ways to be more authentically themselves, and that feels good. It feels empowering. And it’s also complicated. And one of the biggest obstacles to authenticity is relationships and how to navigate the ways that you’ve changed and how that makes you show up differently to your relationships or how it makes other people show up differently to you. It’s very complicated. So with these shifts we’re talking about and changing, that’s why you came to mind. You’ve been through an awful lot of change the last couple of years.
And so I’d like to start this conversation by hearing more of your story and the changes that you’ve experienced, and then we’ll leave more into the topic of how a woman can navigate the changes that they’re experiencing within their relationships.
Sally Osborne: Yeah. Thank you. Cool. I am happy to be here. I really have loved watching your journey and seeing you step into yourself and live your purpose. Like it’s really fun to watch. I was always impressed with you when you were, you know, freshmen academy mentors at BYU, I feel like really thankful to have this opportunity. Thank you for having your own. I called you up when I was starting my own podcast and asked for advice, I appreciate that.
And then you’re killing it. And also I talked to you through my faith transition. I, I am a former Mormon. I was raised Mormon in, in about 2017 is when I stepped away. My husband and I kind of went through a faith journey together and we left the church in 2017 and that was tough time, really scary and traumatic and not something I ever expected.
I was a fully, fully Mormon, gospel doctrine teacher. The whole thing I had just had my third baby, and it was tough, so tough, especially with the relationships close to me who works so warm and namely my parents and some of my best friends, obviously my community and that was just such a great learning experience.
And when we say change, I feel like that means growth. Anytime we’re changing, we’re growing and evolving. It it’s painful to have changed sometimes because it feels like loss. And sometimes there is loss in change, you know, when something changes, like when you say yes to something, you say no to something else.
And so it’s painful, but it’s also growth and ultimately it’s always worth it. Obviously, when you’re living in a certain kind of way, when you step into a different place, there’s still all those people that are still where you were. And so obviously there’s going to be a little bit of disconnect there, or a lot of disconnect.
So I’ll just finish like kind of my story. And then we can go back to that. But about two years later, I realized I was not straight. Yeah. I realized I was gay and I got divorced. And I now with my fiance, we’re getting married pretty soon and few weeks and we have a collective seven children and we’ve been living together since 2019.
And it’s been a wild ride. I bring in combining when, when we moved in together, my littlest had just turned two and her oldest, I believe was 9. And so it was a lot of kids, same ages. I had never had to like provide for a family. So I had that situation, you know, dealing with divorce and the loss of that and the complicated emotions around that was just really hard.
And then learning how to co-parent and being without my kids, every other weekend was just like soul crushing for a long time. It’s just been a lot of adjustment. Things that I think people don’t talk about enough and also really beautiful and amazing. And I’m experiencing like, like I’m a teenager loved for the first time in a way that I’ve never experienced when I’m learning and I’m growing, I became a yoga instructor.
I learned how to meditate. I learned about psychology and, and I just went in hard with everything. And I was doing that before I learned that I was gay. And that’s what led me to that. You know, I was, I was committed to myself, instead of committed to pleasing other people or doing things in a certain way that I thought was right.
I just surrendered to what is, and that’s what came up when you no longer decide to be asleep anymore. It’s not going to be just good feelings. It’s going to be a whole range of emotions. Right. So you’re going to feel all of the amazing emotions, but you’re also, you’re going to feel the full range of emotion.
It’s not, it’s not all rainbows and butterflies, but it’s worth it. I mean, I I’d rather feel the pain and also feel all the joy.
Monica Packer: Thanks for so generously sharing your story and also sharing the yin and yang of it. Like it’s, it is painful and it is joyful. And I know, you know, people who are listening might not relate exactly to your, your story line by line, but they can relate to painful growth, painful change and not the fallout, but that’s not the right word, but how it will trickle down to everything else in your life.
So let’s talk more about this specifically with relationships and in your own experience. And you also work with clients who are going through a lot of change, too. What do you see are the biggest shifts to relationships that people face after they’ve made some pretty big changes?
What should they expect?
What should people expect in relationships to face? And the other person, and most of us, I think is emotional. Like for example, I already know that one of these things is fear expect to be met with fear from the other person.
Sally Osborne: When you share your truth with people, they’re going to be traumatized in a certain kind of way.
They’re going to be surprised. They may be threatened. They made feel confused. They may feel sad because who you are to them is what you have always been. So when you change, they have to reconfigure who you are. And they’re like, wait a second. Right. You’re married with three kids. How can you be gay?
Like that doesn’t make any sense. And so they’re going to kind of push back. It’s it’s a natural instinct. Have this reaction and it is not about you honestly, like remember that when people react to you and when they are distant or confused or hurt or even disappointed in you, it’s not, it’s not about you.
It’s about their, it’s about their perception of you and how you are to them in your life. It all fits. Everybody has a place. This is my daughter. She’s a mom with three kids and that’s where you go. And this is what we talk about. And all of a sudden that changes and she’s like, wait, oh, you have to go back into that place.
I don’t know where to fit you. Now, this is, this is throwing me off. People don’t usually react very well unless you prepare for them. And that’s what I said to my mom. When I came out to her. I sent her a text and I’m like, make sure when I need to tell you something, make sure you’re in a place where you can be calm and not distracted.
And I just need you to listen and love me. And then we can have another phone call later, but I just need you to listen and say, you love me. I like told her exactly what to say and do, because I knew I couldn’t handle anything else at that time. And to have the fortitude to know. Well, yeah, I was super fragile.
I knew I needed to tell her. I also knew it was kind of one of these out of body experience where my subconscious, like it had been the linked my whole entire life and I was 33 and it was like, you have to stay on this path or anything could like possibly throw you off and you need to not let that in.
So I was really protecting myself so I could continue to listen to myself because I knew my mom had a big influence on me and I didn’t want to let that sway me from what I needed to do, where I knew it needs to do. And I could have given her more credit and, and not thought that she would try to sway me some way, but I’m, I’m glad that I played it safe in that situation.
And people maybe also pushing back. You know, I it’s like really defensive. Yeah. Like, cause you’re like directly threatening their whole worldview, their security in life. You are saying you are wrong. I am right. Like that’s how their brain is going to process it. So of course they’re going to be a little defensive or of course they’re going to feel sad or disconnected like, oh no, you’re not going to be able to talk anymore.
We’re not going to be able to have this deeper relationship. So just know that when that happens, you are so much more than this and you will get through this and it’s up to them. It is not your responsibility to hold space for other people’s discomfort, with your truth. You do not have to hold space for them while they are processing their judgment of you.
They can do that on their own. You can tell them, you can be respectful and then you can have boundaries because your value is inherent. You do not have to earn your value. You did not have to earn your place in anyone’s life. You matter, you are worthy. It doesn’t matter what you do, who you are, your roles, nothing, you are born with it.
And if they don’t see that, then that’s that’s on them and they can come around. And if they don’t. Like it’s a sifting process. This is, this is a process of like, okay, I’m going to put my best foot forward. I’m going to show up. This is me. I’m changing. Who’s in it. Who’s not like you get to find that out.
And sometimes you lose people up. For sure. You will lose people. If you change guaranteed, there will be people that leave your life, but there will be lots of people that come into it as well. And that’s beautiful. It’s part of the growth. And those relationships that stay with you. I mean, think about that.
That’s amazing that they’re going to be even more rich, more beautiful because of all the things you’ve been through and how they’ve been able to show up for you and take the opportunity to change because you change. I mean, how beautiful is that my mom has transformed in the last five years. She’s a different person and she could have just been like weird and protective and like distanced herself from us, but nope, she is fricking amazing and we are close and she’s been open and I know it’s been hard, but we’re, we’re better for it. And there are other people that I, that, that are not in my life anymore. And that makes me sad, but also I honor them on their path and I need to keep going.
And if they’re not ready to go that’s okay. And maybe our paths will meet again.
Monica Packer: I feel like we can expect people to not know what to do. Patrice washington’s been on the show in the past and she said something that I’ve never friend she’s like, I can enroll them in the vision, or I can just keep living out the vision and they have the choice, whether or not they’re going to join in on it.
And everything you’ve shared has been so exemplary of that. But yeah, relationship like on the other side of this, there’s a lot of change. And with that can come a lot more growth to, and in-depth
much more after a quick break.
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Just sharing a little bit about how the sausage is made. Grow best. When will listeners share the show with their friends? Truly that is the number one way that podcasts grow and another know how the sausage is made. Moment is summertime tends to be when numbers dip a lot with podcasts and that’s okay.
We’re all doing our different things in the summer, but the point of me sharing all of this is to encourage you to share the show with a friend. If you think of one while you’re listening to. Text him the link to the episode. If you think everybody, you know, needs to listen to that. Put it on Instagram, on your stories.
And one thing we’re doing for fun for the next couple of months is we are going to draw a winner each month from someone who has been sharing on Instagram, linking the podcast and tagging me at about progress. And we don’t get a ton of submission. So your all’s are pretty high. If you can share about the show, that will not only help my big goal to help the show grow this year.
It will also help the friend or loved one that you think of when he listened to this. It’s a win-win. Thank you so much for sharing the show and for helping us in our goals this year,
For those who are trying to figure out how to navigate this, because they’re kind of in the place of almost having to be the leader and the way that their relationships are changing, which is both. Positioned to be in, but also weirdly can be very empowering when you’re looking at it as a place of I can lead the way that these relationships might transform.
What tips do you have for them as they’re trying to navigate that?
Sally Osborne: I would say that it is ever-changing and it’s a journey. The relationships it’s slow. So at first. When somebody is going through something traumatic or something, even beautiful, it’s kinda like you have to go into a cocoon and you don’t really have the energy to give to the people that you normally do.
You kind of have to, and this is a good thing to protect yourself. And so usually there’s a, there’s a phase of like disconnect and it’s not a bad thing. It’s a healthy. So a time of going inward and taking care of yourself, the person who’s going through the changes is really important because during this time you have to have a lot of clarity.
You have to have a lot of self love and care to be able to carry you through. And you don’t want to muddy up your clarity and your courage to change because it takes courage with other people’s opinions and other people’s perspectives and the pressures from other people, especially your parents. It’s it’s important to step into your own and be ok having boundaries during that time, because they need to process as well.
They need time to process and it’s, it’s more healthy to process usually for a while, without each other, without doing it in front of each other, because that can, you can S you’re in trauma brain. So you can both say things that you don’t need. You can both say things that you regret and that’s unnecessary.
So protecting the other person by going through your processing away from them. I think it’s really respectful. I think it’s really loving to do that. For example, I did that both times with when I left the church and when I came out, there was a period of time of like, kind of like, here’s this information let’s go away and you can kind of like, you can process that, but like don’t tell me, because I need to take care of myself.
It was a fragile time. I was very fragile. I was not. I told my parents very quickly after I, I had this change in faith very quickly after I came out. And so it’s not something that I was on super solid ground with yet, and what I I’m so close with them. And so I wasn’t going to keep that information. And I’m glad I did tell them right away, because we were kind of going about it, similar timing.
It wasn’t like I changed my whole life for two years and then kept it away from them and then told them. That would have hurt our relationship. So, Hmm. I’m happy that I told them right away. And then I’m happy that I had that, not to say that the separation wasn’t painful and a little bit scary, like, oh no, is this how it’s going to be forever?
But it wasn’t in it. Like, I, I finally, I naturally figured out when it was time for me to come out, to come out of my cocoon, to. Back into the relationship. And I slowly would start to share more of myself with my friends and family who, who were kind of not, you know, who were still where they were when I changed.
And at the same time I made new friends. I made people, I mean, friends who could support me during that time who were not the same people I had to before. So it’s, it’s important to create that new kind of community, at least have people that can understand you and see you and relate to you while you’re kind of away from and distancing yourself from the people who need to process.
And also like re resources, you know, online communities or podcasts and stuff are really, really, really helpful. And during that time, I think it’s a good idea to see. Keep some kind of connection where like, Hey, I love you. You know, I’m not, this isn’t a long-term thing. I did need time. A huge, huge, huge, huge thing is communication.
Like being able to still be in communication with people and learn how to regulate your nervous system, not react, be your highest self and. And what got the long run here. Don’t, don’t try to force things when they’re not there. Don’t try to force someone to understand you don’t dump all of your emotions onto them or tell them why you let them tell them all about, you know, everything, because that’s just going to exacerbate the incident.
In a way it might make things worse. And so after that terrain of disconnect, there comes a time where the person that changed this has decided like they’d safe enough to start talking in. The important thing at that point is to make sure you keep it about yourself and you just share your own experience and you don’t project.
And you don’t make it about them, just sharing and be really vulnerable and really loving and show up as yourself and then give them an opportunity to do the same. So you’re kind of teaching them how to show up by how you show up. You’re being the example. You are being the teacher in a way without saying I’m the teacher.
And that’s a big thing that I do when I, when I help people come out is how to phrase it, how to show up energetically. ’cause a lot of people want to say, I hope that we can still be loaves. And I hope that you won’t do this. And I’m like, no, no, no, no. You can’t say that. Like that’s telling them, you’re expecting them to do that.
You can, you can say, I know this is hard and that’s okay. And I know we will still be close and we will never not be family. And we will, we will get through this together. And you know, you’re, you’re setting up expectations. By how you present this information and how you show up. So if you’re expecting them to show up in a certain way, you’ve got to do it yourself because they’re not going to know what to do.
They’re clueless. Like most people that have this stuff happened to them, you know, it’s, it’s not something that people are very experienced. So, yeah, I think if you’re the one that is doing the changes, unfortunately you can expect to not necessarily have someone holding space for you and the way that you want, you have to go out and do that for yourself and find the support that you need and not depend on those, those people.
When we tried to be someone else for certain people that erodes the relationship. And so even though it’s hard. It’s really important to show up as your authentic self with everyone, with those people in not shape shifts, because that’s going to lead to a really surface level relationship. So I would say push yourself to the point where you are able to show up as yourself and as your.
For these relationships so that you are authentic, but you’re loving and you’re understanding, and you connect with them because they’re another human, not because they go to the same church as you, not because they have the same political views as you, but because you’re both humans and you’re having a human experience and you can love each other for many, many different reasons.
We’re so much more alike than we are different. And keeping that at the top of every. It’s a way that you can continue to have those special relationships that you really want to hold on to. It
Monica Packer: You’ve probably heard me like do a big sigh was listening to that just because it like, kind of hit me in the gut.
You know, I don’t have the exact same experiences you’ve had, but I have experienced feeling like I’m not showing up as myself. And it goes back to, you know, fear and all the other things that we’ve talked about. So that was for me. So thank you.
if you were to just look at anyone who’s going through a change and give them a little piece of hope here, what would you say to them?
Sally Osborne: I would say I’m proud of you in change, takes courage. It’s easy to stay the same, to say it’s easy to stay comfortable. It’s hard to step out and do things different because it’s unknown, but your life is just outside your comfort zone.
The life of your dreams exists right outside that unknown, that dark area. There’s something in me that just tells me the universe is cheering for you. This greater power, this higher power, whatever it is, is asking you to keep going. And every time you show a little bit of courage, it’s going to come back to you a million times over.
And that’s when I discovered the more I lean into that scary thing where I lean into that scary thing that feels like. The more, my life gets beautiful and vibrant and more expansive than I ever could have imagined me. And so just keep going. What else do you have left to lose? I mean, I think back about, you know, myself five years ago and I would not want to go back there.
I mean, my life was easier. I will say that a lot easier when I was. And I had all my needs met, but there was, there was something missing. There was a gaping holes there, and I can not unknow what I know now. And I would never want to go back, even though it’s been hard. So hold on to that thought, that feeling those little glimmers of beauty that you felt there’s so much more of that calm so much more.
Monica Packer: Oh, so beautiful.
Thank you, Sal. I would like to be able to send people your way. So where would you like them to
Sally Osborne: go? Yes. Instagram is mainly where I’d hang out. Coming out coach is my Instagram handle and my email address is Sally Joe Osborne at g-mail dot com. You can get me up there. Oh wow. Thank you. I am a coach.
I have a podcast called peace out and also Lena and I have been filming a documentary for hulu for the last year and it’s coming out in June for pride month. So look out for that on Hulu and yeah, I also have an interview on Mormon stories. That’s like six hours long, if you want to hear more of me talking, but yeah, I’m just happy to be able to do this work, have a part of changing.
And I mean, change is when I whole thing. This is what I focus on. And I love empowering people and just being a mirror, just being a mirror to people and showing them who they are, has been like such a yes to my life, to be able to have that those experiences with other people in all you listeners.
Remember that you’re freaking awesome. And don’t let anybody else tell you that. Love it love your
fire. And I love you. Thank you so much south.
Let’s see Monica. Thank you for having me on
Monica Packer: I hope this episode gave you the hug and kick in the pants that you need to grow. I’m going to share the progress pointers. Now from this episode, it’s where I share the notes that you don’t need to take. And I send this in a graphic form to my go get our newsletter subscribers each week. Number one, change can be painful, but it also means you are.
To expect to be met with complicated feelings and resistance. Three, start with a disconnect time, give yourself a cocoon time while maintaining some sort of connection to loved ones, build a supportive community, communicate, and don’t try to force love or understanding. And for when you’re ready to reconnect, simply share your experience with.
Show up as your real and authentic, highest self and give them the opportunity to do this. Your do something challenge is to take a moment, to be proud of the changes you have made in your life. This is a bit more of an abstract one, but I just thought no matter how you’ve changed, if you can just take a moment and be proud of yourself, be proud of how you’re raising your kids to.
The, maybe your parents raised you be proud of how you’ve shifted and the ways that you used to view people who belong to a group outside of yourself or whatever it is. Just take that moment to be proud. And when you’ve done that, I would love to hear about it. You can DM me, email me, share on your stories and tag me no matter what I love to hear you.
And I highlight two progressors a month on our gross per episodes. Was this episode helpful for you? If so I have two free and easy ways for you to help the podcast and return. The first is to just share about the show with a friend. If you choose to do that on Instagram stories, you link to the show and you tag me at about progress.
Then you’re automatically submitted to our monthly giveaway just as a quick reminder. And the second way you can help the show is to leave a rating and review on apple podcasts or Spotify. Thank you so much for listening now, go and do something with what you learned today,
from your role to reuse. That’s the hardest word to
Sally Osborne: say?
