When you think about procrastination does it bring up some feelings of shame, maybe self-judgment? These complex feelings are common, so find out what your procrastination really means and how can you stop weaponizing it against yourself. By sorting out where your procrastination is coming from then you can see what your needs truly are and begin to develop healthy and supportive habits.
Shirin shares her own story of perfectionism as an Iranian immigrant who relied on constantly outperforming others and even herself, but teaches now that that behavior is not sustainable. Instead, learn to live at the “intersection of getting it done and allowing yourself to have free time,” which she calls good enough work. Tune in to be, as Shirin says, encouraged to return to your values, your beliefs and what lights you up with purpose.
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TRANSCRIPT
Monica: [00:00:00] Welcome to About Progress again, Shirin, it’s good to have you back.
Shirin: [00:00:03] I am so excited to be back. Thank you for having me.
Monica: [00:00:07] So now you’re over 50 episodes into your new podcast. Let’s just start with telling them where to go with this because I’ve been listening. I’m in love with it, and I really just want them to go there right after they’re done listening to this episode.
Shirin: [00:00:20] Thank you so much. Yeah, the, my podcast is called Wholehearted Coaching, the Podcast. I’m not a very original name, but it gets straight to the point. I love it. I love it now. It’s such a great way to connect with people. I’m sure for you too. It’s just, it’s a really great way to be in community with, with some amazing people. So thank you so much. And I’m so glad you’re enjoying it. Thank you.
Monica: [00:00:42] Had you on in the past to talk about manifesting, which for a lot of people, they have different views of what that looks like, and I loved how you broke that down in such a practical way. And today we’re going to do that in a similar vein, but with a different topic altogether. And it’s procrastination. This month, we’re focusing all on forming good habits. And I really think that there are a few number one contributors.
Not just one. So there’s a few tied to interfering with our good habits. And I think procrastination is both an inhibitor and a habit in and of itself. So let’s talk about procrastination in general. Like what are your views on what it is and why it’s a problem? Is it a habit? Is it something that we learn? Is it a way we cope? What is it, procrastination?
Shirin: [00:01:25] So I, whoever is listening, I want you to know that I am a procrastinator. I’ve changed my relationship with it.
So the weight and the heaviness that that word used to have for me has really shifted. And actually, like, I don’t think I’ve called myself a procrastinator now that I think about it in many, many years. However, I can see how in some arenas of my life, like I exhibit those behaviors that a procrastinator does, which is delay you know, create tactics to get out of it.
Like, what is that? Cleaning your house, watching Netflix you know, just. And especially, I think procrastination is a tough one when we’re delaying doing something that means a lot to us, like delaying doing the dishes. Okay. That something, not my jam, but delaying, you know, launching your website, delaying, you know, reaching out to a client or someone in your network, that type of procrastination is really harmful to us, because I think when we get into that type of procrastination, we use it as some sort of weapon against us. Right. We judge ourselves. We’re like, what’s wrong with you? Why aren’t you doing this thing?
And the way I shifted my belief with procrastination is that I really started to see procrastination as knowledge. So whenever procrastination shows up in my life, whenever I find myself exhibiting those behaviors of delaying not doing, especially when it’s something very meaningful to me, I see procrastination as either wisdom or fear.
And for me sometimes when it’s wisdom, procrastination is my body telling me you’re doing way too much and you need to rest. You simply cannot take on one more thing. And our bodies are very wise. Our intuition is very strong and if we’re not listening to it, then it will do whatever it needs to do to make you not do things.
So for me, sometimes it’s really wisdom where I’m like, Oh actually, maybe I am taking on too much. Maybe this isn’t the time for this project. The other thing that it can be what I say it’s fear is procrastination often shows up when we’re about to do something that’s really courageous. It’s a risky thing.
We’re taking a big leap and it’s that fear of failure, fear of judgment, fear of uncertainty. And instead of really addressing, Oh my gosh, I’m really scared. I’m doing something new. I’m doing something that I’ve never done before, where I’m doing something that’s going to put me out there instead of really digging into the fear, working with the fear, we procrastinate.
And then we just, instead of actually dealing with the root cause we deal with the symptom like, ah, and we judge ourselves. And so again, it’s like putting a bandaid over a wound that like needs to have, like, I don’t know, a brace and a cast and like all these other things. And so. For me now, when I start to delay, I just have to check in and say, okay, is this either wisdom or fear?
And then I can, I can figure things out from there so much easier than spending days judging myself, you know?
Monica: [00:04:37] Which only perpetuates the cycle of procrastinating more because it’s such a shameful thing. I mean, I love how you said right out, right out the gate, you know, that you procrastinate too. And I do too.
And, and, but I like that you’ve shifted the relationship away from shame and it’s more of a tool it’s just being more aware of it and relating to it in a different way. Helps you be more aware of what’s really going on, which really shifts things to me, for sure.
Shirin: [00:05:04] Yeah. And I love that you said that because if we really look at procrastination is wisdom or fear, you know, I always think of how you.
How you would talk to a kid and if a kid is afraid of doing something, the last thing I don’t have any children, I have a nephew whom I love and adore, but if he’s afraid to do something, I know if I, if I talk to him by shaming him or making him feel guilty or judging him, he’s not going to want to actually, you know, take a risk and do things.
And so it’s the same thing with us. If we can actually be like, Oh, this is fear. There’s nothing to be ashamed about when it comes to fear, it’s just working with the fear. But whenever we operate from a place of shame, you’re just, you’re so right. It’s this perpetuating cycle. Shame never makes us act in ways that are, you know, healthy in healthy ways. Getting out of that shame cycle is so important.
Monica: [00:05:58] Yeah, I love too that this can be done so objectively, like you said, it’s, you know, it could be if we’re only dwelling on, Oh, I’m such a procrastinator, we’re only paying attention to like the bandage over the wound. So we have to just be objective.
Well, let’s see what’s under there is it that I am overwhelmed because I have signed up for too many things or I have too much going on or I’ve gone on, this has gone on for too long and I need to rest or is it, what am I afraid of? So there’s needs to be courage either way so courage to see what’s really going on.
Shirin: [00:06:30] Absolutely.
Monica: [00:06:32] So courage seems to be a good antidote to it in some ways, as well as being objective. But let’s talk about another reason why procrastination can continue to perpetuate, especially when it does become a cycle. What in your mind is the reason for this?
Shirin: [00:06:46] One of, I think our biggest root causes for why we procrastinate is actually perfectionism.
We procrastinate because we think, especially if it’s a meaningful venture, that we’re about to go on the thing that we want to do, do we believe that it has to be perfect, but there’s a perfect way to execute it. There’s a perfect way for it to be done, that there is a best way. And having that weight on us, which doesn’t allow us to fail, which doesn’t allow us to experiment.
It just makes us kind of paralyzed, right? Procrastination can’t move. Can’t do the thing. And so it’s that weight of perfectionism, but so often it’s actually stopping us from doing the thing. And I think one of our biggest narratives when we do procrastinate is like, well, obviously, you know, if it meant so much to you to start your own business, then you would start your own business and it’s not that it doesn’t mean much to you and it actually means SO much to you that you’re not taking action.
Right. And so reframing that to see, Oh my gosh. Yeah, because this is so near and dear to my heart. And I think that I have to do it in this perfect way. That’s why I’m procrastinating. And shifting that to actually look at the perfectionism and how that’s kind of getting in the way of you executing and doing something that means a lot to you.
Monica: [00:08:14] Whenever we talk about that reframing, I see, you know, light bulbs go off in a woman’s eyes. And I actually have seen women cry over this saying like you, I’m not lazy. I’m not a procrastinator. I’m not a non finisher. I’m not a scatterbrain. I am a perfectionist, really. And, and it’s because, you know, there’s many reasons for this.
We, we aspire for perfectionism. We don’t think we qualify. You know, unless we’re meeting the perfectionist ideal. So let’s talk about this a little bit more. Perfectionism. You, you said this in episode again, I’m going to refer people to it and put in the show notes B, talk about how perfectionism really is a coping mechanism.
I would love to hear more about that.
Shirin: [00:08:58] Yeah. So a lot of the character traits that we identify with like, Oh, I’m such a perfectionist, such a hard worker. I’m an overachiever. These are actually coping mechanisms, right? There are mechanisms that we all developed at some point in our lives because they helped us stand out.
They helped us feel safe. They helped us feel valued. Within our lives. So for instance, with me, perfectionism was a big part of how I felt valued and safe. My family immigrated from Iran to Canada when I was four, and I was the only Brown kid in a very white community. And. I, you know, that moment that I, and I can’t identify when it was, but that moment when I realized, Oh, when I do things really well, that’s when they see me, that’s when they applaud, that’s when I’m special.
And so I kind of, I took that on as something really important, I think with, with things like perfectionism and, and being a hard worker and even people pleasing. Again, very insidious because they’re really valued in our society. Right? Well, what’s wrong with doing things like amazingly, what’s wrong with working hard.
And we all know this, that these coping mechanisms, you know, they get us really far. They do get us really far. But that we hit a wall where it’s, it’s toxic and it’s unhealthy. And then like with procrastination, it stops us from doing things that are really, really important to us. So for me, you know, I was this girl who got, I mean, I would get literally like 95 and above in high school, like just, it was now looking back on it.
I’m like, I wish I had just enjoyed my youth more. Right. I, I was that girl who just got 95, like on a hundred and everything. And then in college I took that same work ethic with me, really stood out and what’s really kind of mind boggling to me is I for, so in, I think in our previous episode, we probably spoke about this.
I was an opera singer for 10 years, so it’s mind boggling to me how I was working with this perfectionist mindset in a field in which perfection is impossible. In art. Like it’s just so subjective. It’s so it’s creative. But I was applying that mindset to my creative career and it burnt me out completely.
And so when I started my business started wholehearted coaching. I knew certain things had to shift and change. And I knew that if I use that same mindset, that yes got me very far as a singer, but then also ultimately led to me burning out and having to switch careers. I knew if I took that mindset in, it wouldn’t be the joyful, enjoyable experience that I wanted it to be. And again, I think so many of us, when it comes to embarking on our dreams, we do it because of the joy we do it because it means a lot to us that it’s meaningful, it’s fulfilling. There is nothing about perfectionism that instills joy, meaning or fulfillment in us because it never ends. It’s never ending. And so that for me was a big wake up call where I was like, you need to really figure this out because the perfectionism again, and I saw it at the very beginning of my business. Like I wasn’t launching my website. I wasn’t contacting clients. I wasn’t doing all these things.
And again, I was like, Oh, look at this, those procrastination tendencies, you know, here you are in a new venture. You’ve done all the things you went to school again. You’re not doing it. What’s wrong with you. And then I was like, Oh, it’s not, there’s nothing wrong with me. I’m just, I think I have to do this perfectly.
And yeah, if I work on the perfection, that’s when everything unlocked that it wasn’t like. And I think that’s the thing is we think, Oh, we’re procrastinators. So I should have. Figure out hacks. Maybe if I wake up earlier, if I have, and all those things do help, but again, they’re tools that are kind of a little useless if you’re not looking at the root cause of why you’re procrastinating.
Monica: [00:13:12] Absolutely. And that’s the thing we get lost on Pinterest looking for solutions, whether it’s, how can I get more organized or ways to do day planning or goal planning or, you know, work on my procrastination and we’re giving we’re going right to the list. Yes. Instead of dealing with the real roots of how we’re coping.
Yeah. With, in my mind as a misplacement of identity, that’s what perfectionism really is. It’s a misplacement, right?
Shirin: [00:13:40] My gosh. Yes.
Monica: [00:13:42] And it changes everything. This is, it really does change everything. It doesn’t mean it’s perfect. Right? Once, once you’re on the other side and this is one thing I always liked to think of, I an Oprah’s one of my.
Biggest heroes. I always think I’m sure Oprah procrastinates too. So this is something to be aware of and work through better. And I do want to move into some tips there, but first there was one more thing you said that really struck me is that yes. Sometimes we do see perfectionists getting really far, but only so far.
Shirin: [00:14:16] Yes. And then also, I would say again, we don’t know what’s happening in other people’s lives, but like, what is their quality of life? Like, you know, what is… I thought for me is such a big thing. Again, if we’re talking about pursuing our dreams, it should feel like a dream too. And so that to me is just so incredibly important, but I think resilience comes from letting go of perfection, a hundred percent and sustainability and resilience are, are such key factors in dream building, because we’re not here for the short run, right. We’re, we’re here to create legacies. We’re here to create something that’s really. Long-term that has longevity. So yes, that’s a huge, huge part of it as well.
Monica: [00:15:04] I love that I just wrote down, you know, work on building resilience. In other words, doing things messily.
Shirin: [00:15:10] Yes. Do we leave this messily for a long time over and over again,
Monica: [00:15:16] Over and over. My podcast has certainly taught me that, which is why it was called About Progress all along, because I was trying to lean into being mediocre instead of doing all or nothing. And, you know, doing mediocre work over time has led to, you know, well over 300 episodes and you know, so many people in this community. So that’s just not to say people should start a podcast, but it all is for different reasons. Let’s, let’s kind of go into some more of the practical ways for them to build a healthier relationship with both this two sided procrastination and perfectionism, and how can we work with this better? So we’re more aware of it, but we’re also not letting it control our lives.
Shirin: [00:15:57] So for me the thing that changed at all was this concept that I came up with, which is just, I mean, it’s not really a concept. It’s just good enough work. Good enough work. That is literally the foundation of everything I do now right now, because good enough work is the intersection of getting it done and also allowing yourself to have free time and time to do the things that you, you know, want to spend with your family or your hobbies or whatever that is for you. It’s really understanding as well that the people who matter the people who truly want you and your work and your magic, whatever that is, they do not want your perfect.
They just want your work in the world. Right? Like I always say this to clients, you know, when they’re like, when they’re really you know, cause procrastination, cause also be indecision. So there’s two things and we’ll talk about them, but what’s really fascinating to me is that no one notices like the people who matter do not notice I have typos.
I have. And again, like, there is this, we’ll talk about this a little more, but there’s this fine balance of it all. But like, and I’m sure Monica you’ve had this where you’ve, you’ve put something out in the world and you’re like, Whoa, I completely forgot to edit that. Or there was a huge grammar mistake in there.
And no one in my community has ever said, Oh my gosh, well, I just don’t want to work with this person anymore. I have a course called Inner Compass and we have monthly calls with one another.
And one of the modules is about good enough work. It’s about letting go of perfection and good enough work. And on the live call, I was saying to someone, I was saying to them that everything in this program is good enough. There’s like mistakes here and there. And I said, does that make you want your money back. Are you, are you getting, are you not getting value out of this? Because had I waited for perfect, I would have never launched the course. Right. Had you waited for perfect. You would have never launched this podcast, which has probably changed so many people’s lives. And so we really have to look at it that way that someone in the world really needs this thing that you have, and they do not care if it is perfect, they do not care.
So the two parts of good enough work to me are this concept of B+ plus work. Which I got from this is from a wonderful coach, Brooke Castillo. She actually calls it. I think she calls it B minus work. And I was like, Whoa, B minus. I can’t, I can’t deal with .
Monica: [00:18:32] Especially people who are really stuck in the perfectionistic mindset B- is terrifying.
Shirin: [00:18:39] Oh my gosh. So let’s, let’s go with, let’s start with your thoughts. So it’s B plus work, which is exactly what that sounds like, which is doing things at a B plus level. And trying to figure that out is going to be an experiment, right? You going from your a and slowly working your way backwards, and also knowing that, like, if you are someone who is a perfectionist that your B-plus is most likely going to be an A, for, you know, the regular person. But also like, I love this experiment because for instance, a post I had on Instagram, like had the wrong image. Like there was a grammar mistake and then I deleted it and then I posted the wrong mistake again. It was just, and no one cared.
Like no one can I, and actually that post where had the grammar mistake, it was the most shared, it was the most commented post of, of the year, right? Because like, it was the idea of the sentiment behind it and just all of these experiences. This is us also creating proof. So for me, I had now have three years of proof of when I put out good enough work.
Everything is fine. Everything is fine. My people do not care. They’re still getting value of my work. And so, so that’s the good enough work, which is going to be something that is personal and something you just play with.
And then the second one, which I really love is just give yourself less time to do things. We are like sponges, when it comes with time, you give someone two days to do something. Then we’ll take two days. You give someone three hours and they will try to figure it out in three hours. And this kind of goes hand in hand with good enough work.
Cause if you have three hours, you’re like, well, these only three hours I have. This kind of comes back to this. This is gonna, I feel like people in your audience will be like, what is she talking about? But I don’t have kids. Sometimes I get actually very envious of people who have kids, my friends who have kids, cause they’re like I only have an hour during their nap time to get this done.
And that hour is the most productive hour that it just supersedes any hour that I have had in my life, because I do not know the value of time because I don’t have kids. Right. And so that is what it is. It’s like almost like I have. You know, two kids sleeping in the other room. This is the hour and a half,
Monica: [00:20:54] This can apply to anything.
There’s something called like the, the two minute rule. I think I originally heard this from the Power of Moms. I don’t know that there was a podcast there for a while and they said if it takes anything less than two minutes, you do it and you just kind of get in that mindset of doing, and then certainy amount of time.
I don’t, I don’t think you should downplay though, like that. Oh, I don’t have kids. I have vacuous amount of times, like either. I just want to say, put that out there.
Shirin: [00:21:21] Thank you very much. Thank you. But I, but I do, but I think I also knowing that because I don’t have a kids, my concept of time and someone who does have kids, especially during this time with COVID is so different.
It’s just really getting into that mindset that this is the hour I have to do this and not trying to make something perfect, making something that is, that is good enough. And, you know, and if you’re finding, okay, actually an hour, isn’t enough, then maybe extending that to an hour and a half and two.
But , I think sometimes we also equate time with value, you know, an effort.
And that’s just not, that’s not the case. Really. We have to kind of let go of that narrative too, of like time equals value.
Monica: [00:22:03] Like the more you, the more you put in the better things are, and that’s not true. And this applies to anything that the listeners are thinking of doing, whether they’re trying to getting into meditation, like do good enough work there, do a B maybe even a B minus effort of like five minutes or learning a new recipe or finding ways to have fulfillment. And a lot of the women in my community struggle with just even having time to themselves and doing something that fills them up in a way that’s not numbing, which is procrastination often is. So do just count it, count the small amounts of time. And the more you do that, the more you’re going to see, Oh, this adds up and this, this creates momentum.
Shirin: [00:22:46] It totally creates momentum. This idea of productivity to me, I actually think productivity is just a feeling and it’s a feeling that so many of us don’t allow ourselves to feel to acknowledge because the to-do list never gets shorter. It does not. And when we can start to acknowledge exactly, as you said, Monica, those small things, we’re doing that. Like I’m only going to give myself three tasks today. And when I do those tasks, I’m going to celebrate it and I’m going to really be proud of myself.
Instead of saying, I’m going to give myself 10 tasks today, knowing that you can’t. Compete complete tasks. We do that all the time and then getting down on ourselves for creating an unrealistic schedule. So if the more we allow ourselves to feel the way we want to feel like give ourselves that acknowledgement and permission, that also creates that sustainability that we’re looking for.
And really, you know, with perfectionism coming back to that, If that’s the standard. If that’s the bar, we’re never going to reach it. So that just keeps us from doing the things we really want to do, which is again, like the cycle of, then you’re getting down on yourself because you really want to do the thing, right?
And so if we can let go of the fact that it needs to be perfect, that I need to get X, X, X, X, X amount done in this amount of time, that just helps so much to relieve the pressure we’re putting on ourselves.
Monica: [00:24:19] I’m always going to remember. But you just said that that phrase productivity is a feeling. I never thought of it that way, but it absolutely is true.
And I love that. There’s the practical side to this too, that you said as well, just start with limiting what you even have on your list. Yeah. You’re not always looking at this long list of, to do’s that you could only do one thing and then you think you’re not productive, which brings us back to something we talked about earlier: identity.
You know, when you have too high of standards, you’ll never see yourself as someone who is productive or valuable hard worker and yeah. Oh, what are the standards?
Shirin: [00:24:57] Change the standard or whatever that is. Right. And I really want, like, I really want whoever’s listening. Right? You have done amazing using these things if you do.
Like, because I think also like someone may be listening and saying, well, but I want to have high standards. Right? Like I want my work to be quality. And again, we’re not saying that the work isn’t going to be valuable, it isn’t quality, but. Is quality and value found in high standards. Is that perfection like, no, no, they’re not the same thing.
And I always, now we’re going to get into now we’re getting deeper because I always say that the space between good enough work and perfectionism is all ego. And it has nothing to do with you. It has like that at that point, that space between good enough and perfection is you being like, what are they gonna think of me?
What, like, I need to make this good. And I, and I know this too, when I’m in that space, I’m thinking about other people and their perception of me and comparing myself. That space between good enough and perfection has nothing to do with my values, with my beliefs, with what lights me up with my purpose, like has nothing to do with it.
It just has to do with my ego, trying to validate itself by other people. But you know what I’m saying? And so that’s also a really important part of the, part of the discussion too, is like, well, What is perfectionism to you and why is it so important and what does it mean? And, and is all of that true?
Is all of that true?
Monica: [00:26:39] Yeah. Even just asking the questions of, if I had the perfect outcome, would that make me feel like I made it, will it make me feel like I’m good enough? Will others like me better? Will they even notice even. Peeling back the layers that way I think is so helpful. Wow. You know what? I just want you on every week.
Shirin: [00:27:00] We’ll do like a, we’ll do like a partner podcast.
Monica: [00:27:03] Seriously though. I have, I have loved this and I’ve been so drawn to your work. And in fact, if I’m, I feel like I’m having a little memory of someone in my community pointing me to towards you and they hit the nail on the head because the work you do is so similar, like we’re so aligned, but also.
Like such a different perspective too, in ways that we, we need and I needed it. So I would just want to say, thank you. Thank you for being here. And let’s tell people where to go besides the podcast. Where can they go to, to find you so you can
Shirin: [00:27:33] find me on Instagram at Wholehearted Coaching. And then my website is wholehearted-coaching.com.
Monica: [00:27:41] Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for being on the show.
Shirin: [00:27:44] Thank you for having me. This was so wonderful.
