Do you feel overwhelmed by life’s challenges and wonder how to find peace amidst the chaos? I recently had the great honor of speaking with Katherine May, the author of ‘Wintering’ on this exact topic. We dive deep into the popular concept of ‘wintering,’ while Katherine sheds light on the importance of rest, retreat, and relationships during these times.
This episode teaches us that by slowing down and valuing our quieter seasons, we can experience profound personal growth. Katherine also shares practical insights on how to lean into our winters and find the beauty and wisdom they hold. Tune in for a heartfelt conversation that will inspire you to embrace your own personal winters.
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TRANSCRIPT
Monica Packer: Katherine May, welcome to About Progress.
Katherine May: Thank you for having me. I’ve got a feeling you’re my people.
Monica Packer: Oh, you’ve already made me smile. I can’t wait for my people to get to know you better. I got to know you first through Enchantment. I read that first. And then Wintering, which I am equally obsessed with. In the, in Wintering, you take us through a literal and figurative winter in your life. And I’ve been curious since that experience and documenting it and writing it in such a beautiful way. I’ve been wondering how that journey of doing so and putting it out in the world has helped you through other winters that I’ve followed since then.
Katherine May: Oh, that’s such a good question because I always write books to learn about something. Um, it’s the best way I have to really dig deep into knowledge that I want to acquire. And I hate the idea of writing a book about something I already know. Like I really like that experience of learning as I go along.
And articulating what I articulated in Wintering has really changed the way I’ve seen things. Like I started it from a point of view of wanting to share how normal I thought it was to winter. So that didn’t change. But what has changed for me is the kind of depth of that experience and the sense, I think of the shape of it, actually, of that real understanding of how Wintering almost has a narrative arc, not the book, but the experience.
Yeah. Um. And of course, what that comes from is talking to loads of people about it afterwards and hearing people’s stories and really getting a sense of the commonality of that experience and how going down deep into that really dark time is, Slower than I think I ever thought it was actually I’ve began to perceive the long tail of it much more, but also to see it as like a spiritual experience.
Almost, I don’t think it’s too grand a word to use, to, to really, truly perceive how change like completely washes through us. During those moments and the way that we come out is with this wisdom and this sense of like how the world works, I think the real beauty of it has only come to me later than writing the book even.
Monica Packer: And I’m sure that’s definitely bolstered by the many people who have been able to share their own narrative arc with you. Oh, amazing. Yeah.
Katherine May: Yeah. And just being able to look each other in the eye, I think, and say I see you, it’s really, it’s so powerful. It’s something that has been kept so secret in our lives and that’s been seen as so shameful.
And here we all are. And it turns out that pretty much everyone has gone through it. And the people who don’t relate to the book just haven’t got there yet, I’m afraid. That’s my marketing slogan, right?
Monica Packer: It’s accurate. You’re definitely selling truth there. I genuinely
Katherine May: think it’s true, yeah. Yeah. I genuinely think that’s true.
That great if you’ve skipped a hard winter so far, but unfortunately it is a very natural part of our human life cycle and our, a really normal social experience too and it will come. And in, and I’m the person that’s here to say that’s okay, actually. It will be fine. Ultimately,
Monica Packer: I’m sure.
And even the word wintering, people are getting what this is really about how it’s both a seasonal thing, but also a life cycle kind of thing. But could you explain a little bit more about what wintering really is?
Katherine May: So wintering is a word that I’ve borrowed from the natural world. Um, and it’s a book that’s partly about the experience of meteorological winter, what it’s like to live in the cold, in the dark, and what are the strategies for getting through it, if you like, but not just strategies for bossing it, but strategies for appreciating it and really understanding its messaging.
But it’s also a metaphorical exploration of human winters, the way that as a natural part of our life cycle. We have downturns and we have seasons in the cold and during that time we probably feel very isolated from the rest of the world and probably feel like catastrophe is taking place. But actually when you begin to look at the life experiences of people that do that and engage with our own sensing during that time, you begin to realize that this is, I’m going to quote myself, like not the death of the life cycle, but it’s crucible.
It’s the beginning of a rebirth, and it’s a time when we kindle a new self and a new life. And so in both senses, I just wanted to explain that winter is beautiful and not horrible after all, and very necessary.
And that’s what I would like to lean into right now, that whole idea of appreciating our own personal winters as well as the actual winter season.
But I think the former is more important because What I believe we tend to do as humans is we either white knuckle through a winter or we power through, or maybe we isolate through, which is way different than the power of retreat, what you talk about. So what kind of mistakes do all three actually.
Yeah. And all at the same time.
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe all at the same time. I think particularly for overachievers, um, there is that sense that we do not want to see a winter coming. Like we, we are used to that graph that strides upwards. We only know how to define ourselves in terms of success.
And so when that wintering moment comes for us, we first of all try and resist it really hard. And we have the toolkit to do that very well, probably better than most people, which means that by the time We really hit the worst part. We’re much more exhausted than everybody else because we have taken ourselves well beyond what our bodies are capable of doing.
And that’s when we see those patterns of really deep burnout that take years to recover from. And I, so yeah, I think we do all of that. I’m afraid it’s not either, or I think we try the first and then the first ends up completely flattening us. And then we do the isolation because the shame kicks in because we don’t believe that we of all people should be hit by this.
We believe that we should have been able to find a way through.
Monica Packer: So resisting it does not help, but learning to welcome it. Yeah. Welcoming it. And as well as even appreciating it can help us move through it better.
Katherine May: Yeah, I mean resisting it doesn’t stop it from happening. I think there are loads and loads of people that still believe that they can somehow take the right number of steps to stop it from occurring.
And actually, that’s not what this is about. This is about genuinely impossible situations coming up and their impact is very real. And in fact, if we can get rid of the idea that bossing it is avoiding it, and that actually the way to really Get the most out of a wintering is to lean into it and to let its full scope visit us because it is something that will profoundly change us, reinforce our values, renew our sense of purpose in the world.
reconnect us in deep ways with the people that matter most to us. And in lots of ways, it’s a shedding of a skin. It’s a shedding of an illusion, I think. And it’s the experience of one life falling away and the next life emerging. And I think once we can let go of those kind of achievement narratives that everything’s about our imposition of will on life.
Um, and start to see that sometimes stuff will happen to us anyway. And that doesn’t make us weak. There’s actually strength in absorbing that rather than resisting it. Then we can maybe begin to get somewhere with it.
Monica Packer: So I’m a how girl, and I think a lot of my audience is too, when we, this is connecting, but then I get stuck in the how, because it is so foreign to the way I have tried to muscle through those winters in the past.
And by the way, you’re right. The resistance of them never made them go away. It actually made it harder. So how can we lean in? Yeah. How can we lean into this crucible then? What are some actual. Things to keep in mind, things to try, strategies that you would recommend.
Katherine May: Okay. So I’m going to say the painful thing, which is you’ve got to let go of strategy thinking altogether.
This is about learning to experience, actually. And that means letting everything slow right down. I think for me when that’s happened to me that’s been the most painful thing like this sense that the world on the outside is making progress you know it’s almost there’s a party in the next room and you can glimpse it through the curtains but you’re you are not part of it and this is why successful people are so ill-equipped for their winters because we just wanna get back in that room.
We wanna rush that as much as possible. And if you rush back into that room, you’ll fall back out again and you’ll fall back harder and you’ll keep falling back out until the world is finally teach you the lesson, taught you the lesson that you need to learn, which is that you no longer belong in that room.
And so if you want a strategy. You go out and walk every day, you try and find ways that suit you to reflect, you meditate, you pray, you journal, whatever it is that helps you to enter into that reflective space. You cut down on your commitments as much as you possibly can. You make yourself comfortable and you wait.
You wait for the next life to arrive. It’s amazing. So hard to explain that to someone that’s used to saying no. What I’m going to do is I’m going to draw up a spreadsheet and I’m going to do this, and this, and I’m going to set myself targets. Like none of that is relevant to you right now.
You need to rest. This is an invitation into resting. This is an invitation to draw back, to find out what’s harming you because you probably don’t know it right away. And. It’s an invitation to radically engage with your sense of agency and your sense that you have to control everything. That’s all going to be going, unfortunately,
Monica Packer: sooner or later.
Katherine May: Yeah.
Monica Packer: The how side of me hates an answer, but the lived experience side of me, I, you’re right. You’re right. And it is, it’s both so simple and complex to do, to, as you say, rest in peace. to retreat. What would you say for the woman who is comparing her winter self with her past self? Because I think, of course, there are so many outside voices that when we have to slow down, and I love that was really it for you, ultimately, like just slow down. Forced into it.
Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I had to be forced into it though. There was no part of me that Like the idea of slowing down in any way, but this is the thing. People often say to me like, I can’t afford to slow down. I don’t have a kind of lifestyle that lets me slow down and that massively misses the point because the thing is.
You will be stopped. You will be slowed down. That’s what happened to me in the end that I got so sick that I could barely walk to the end of my street.
Yeah.
And it wasn’t a choice. The choice had been taken away from me by then because I’d missed loads of opportunities to take the right choices a long time ago.
So by the time I entered my winter. My choice had gone. It wasn’t an act of will anymore. And I think we tend to see that as weakness, but it’s just the inevitable. It’s just our bodies visiting us. And it’s just something that we don’t have a model for in our society. Like we, we don’t see people who’ve met that point in their lives because they hide themselves away or we find them completely uninteresting.
And what, and one of the things that I think we can do in the good times is learn to witness people in the bad times, is to really go out of our way to notice the people who’ve fallen from view because they could well be in that very quiet, isolated phase. And they might be communicating something to us that is a sort of signpost for that, for what’s to come for us one day.
Monica Packer: So the outside voices we’ve talked about the inside one. I wanted to touch on a bit more when you’re in that winter and you just want to get into that next room or return to the room you were in before, right? Like you talked about and how difficult it is to push against this inner comparison monster, right?
That is making me, um, resist the slowing down, resist the rest. Because of the former self that was able to do the same thing in a different way before. What advice do you have for someone who is really working through the inner critic, the inner resistor there?
Katherine May: I think you take it hour by hour, honestly.
And I think what you’ll notice if you let your attention rest. on what you’re going through rather than what you want to do. So find ways to watch your emotions, as if they’re clouds going off across the sky. You’ll notice that every single emotion is held in this state of being, like things pass through you really fast.
So you might feel unbearably sad for one hour, but if you watch, you’ll notice that joy will come the next hour or absolute blind fury or silliness kind of visits you sometimes. And sometimes you have these moments of deep comfort and beauty. Everything’s contained in that space. Your work is to learn to notice that everything, because almost certainly what’s been happening in your previous busy life is that you haven’t been engaging.
with all of that feeling, all of that sentiment, all of that sensing. And it’s a real skill to let your attention rest on exactly what is being presented to you in the here and now. And when you can, when you do that, when you allow that to happen, when you welcome all of the negative feelings equally as much as all of the positive feelings, you will quickly notice that You’ve probably changed without realizing it already.
You’re not waiting for the change to happen. The change has already happened. Like things will rise up in you that will tell you things about the life you’ve been living that you have been pushing back. You might be feeling an extreme aversion to your job or your relationship might already be dying, or you might have been ignoring physical pain for a long time.
All of these things can only come to us when we make space for them. And we can’t heal them until we’ve made that space. So it’s a very different model of work, but it’s still, I think it’s still work. Like you have a task to do, which is to feel your feelings during that time. And it’s probably one of the hardest jobs you’ll ever.
Ever do. And no one gives you a tick at the end of it. Nobody goes, well done, good work. 10 out of 10.
Monica Packer: And you’ve made it, you’re done. Yeah. This process sounds so much more intuitive than I think we give credit to. Meaning for those of us, like me, who want the playbook and in leaning into the winter.
Uh, we learned to put the playbook aside. It’s an intuitive process. Like I think it’s about learning a lot of self trust that you lost along the way.
Katherine May: Yeah. I think the first thing to say really important is that Wintering is not like a book that gives you a playbook. It’s a, it’s an exploration and it’s, I always wanted to walk alongside my readers while they learned themselves.
I’ve got no interest in telling people what to do because people are, yeah. too smart for that and they don’t need it. But I think the point about intuition is really interesting, because so many of us learn to suppress our intuition very early on in our lives. Like we realize that for a variety of reasons, we’re Our intuition holds us back or doesn’t serve us, because it lets us know when we’re uncomfortable.
And in order to succeed at a whole range of things, or to cope with, say, different difficult family environments we come to believe that the best thing to do is to squash down our intuition and to run over our feelings. So like traditionally, the ballerina learns to suppress the feeling of pain in her feet, or the child with a critical parent learns to, to just not feel that, to, to keep working until perhaps they’ll get, some respect from that parent.
I’m autistic and I had to suppress my intuition in a very different way. Like I had to learn to, not feel my extreme sensory input because otherwise the world felt unbearable. So I had to squash all of that down. There’s loads of different ways that happens. But the problem is that not only does that intuition serve us really well if we let it happen, but also it will rise up in us eventually.
And so quite often what we’ll feel is that we’ve been running along for so long, pushing back really strong signals that would have told us to stay safe, that would have kept us out of this situation. And when we let that back in, the world is going to seriously jangle in you for a while. I have really been through that process since my diagnosis, like the uprising of sensation again, unbelievable at first I couldn’t believe that I’d been able to squash this down.
And then after a couple of years of letting it be, letting it come. And adapting so that I didn’t have to feel that I didn’t have to put myself in the situations where it was like where I felt attacked all the time. I now look back and think. I can’t believe I survived like that. I can see now why I was so exhausted all the time, why I was so stressed, why I was so overwrought, why my relationships were often so poor.
And so yeah, that, that sense of intuition, that word intuition is something that all of us need to stop thinking is like a weird spooky thing and actually come back to thinking this is our fundamental sensing telling us what we need and telling us very clearly what we don’t need. Yeah. It’s a intuition is a huge one.
Monica Packer: You said it in the book. I’m actually going to read a quick little quote from you. Uh, he said, quote, wintering is a moment of intuition. Our true needs felt keenly as a knife unquote. That really, Does sum it up. I think people who haven’t gone through the same experience as you would still be able to understand a series of self denial moments that turn into an act of self betrayal.
And that’s how we often get lost into the really hard winters because of how long we have been denying what we already knew we needed and wanted.
Katherine May: We keep running towards the danger because we’ve learned so hard to ignore the danger and then we can’t believe it when it gets us, we’re so shocked by that.
Yeah. But there’s like a, there’s like a sort of balancing sentence at the end of the book that balances the kind of wintering is a moment of intuition, which is I assumed my needs were reasonable. And that for me is one of the most powerful sentences in the book. The one that I come back to so often, because actually, I’ve so often assumed my needs aren’t reasonable, , of course it sounds so simple.
It sounds like primary school, right? Like I assume money. Of course I assume my needs are reasonable. They’re my needs. We don’t. We absolutely don’t. Yeah. And if we can learn to notice our needs in the first place, which is the big challenge for loads of us, and then to think, huh. I might actually need that.
I might need to leave this party because it’s too loud and someone’s been really unpleasant to me and I don’t want to be here anymore. I might need to go to bed because I’m tired. I might need to eat something because actually skipping lunch every day is just making me hungry and mad and I can’t think straight.
Like the simple things that we would let children do we need to let ourselves do too.
Monica Packer: We’ve spoken a lot about that return to self during wintering and how that can be done through rest and retreat. But one thing I was really struck by in your own wintering was how connected you still were to the people who matter most to you.
When I hear the word retreat, I think. My go to way of dealing with hard things is being a turtle, like going in the shell and not letting people in. Obviously, that’s another thing that doesn’t work. How are relationships? Kind of the third R in wintering, rest retreat relationships.
Katherine May: Interesting. Not many people think about that. That’s a lovely question. And I would say that sometimes wintering is about cutting off from relationships that are harming us. And sometimes it’s about learning to delve deeper into the relationships that sustain us. And another part of that intuition and sensing is allowing yourself the space to tune in enough to difference.
And I think frequently our impression of who does take care of us and who is a positive force in our lives will shift radically during a time of wintering. We often have been attracted to the kind of big shiny people, as I like to think of them, the sort of suns rather than the moons, the people that output a lot of heat and noise but can burn us really easily.
And during a time when life retracts, the kind of quiet people in our lives, the constant people, the faithful people rise up and we notice them because they make themselves known in that time. They come and offer us gentle care. They come and say that they’ve noticed that we’re not around at the moment or that we seem a bit sad, and there’s a huge enrichment that happens during those times and a real sense of shift in how we understand who is good for us, who actually cares and who we care about.
But I also think that it’s hugely therapeutic during those times to retreat with the right people, to spend time with beloved family members, um, rather than being out partying. I don’t do much partying. This is a bad example for me, but being out partying. What do I know about being out partying?
I, in my youth maybe. Um, like spending time with Invalued, trusted relationships that nourish and sustain us and with people that can bear to just sit beside us while we’re sad, who can, who will say, let’s watch a movie together rather than, Oh, come on, you’ve not been out for ages.
You must come to this thing. That’s the difference in the quality of that relationship. And yeah, it’s a, it’s one of the life’s great sifting devices, I would say.
Monica Packer: So with this, One of my favorite parts of your book Wintering was when you spoke about rituals and their power of helping us do these things.
And I wanted to know, what are the rituals that you are looking forward to this literal winter coming up that you’re going to prioritize?
Katherine May: This is. This is my sacred ground, the time we’re coming into now, and I, those patterns were really established when I was writing the book. I’ve always loved winter.
I, like when I was a kid, my family, Christmases were really big and important and actually, I’d had this huge sense of loss as I went into adulthood because my grandmother died and as soon as she died, we let go of all our family traditions. It was wild, it was this huge moment of grief and no one knew how to meet it and we lost a lot.
We let go of a lot and writing Wintering gave me permission to find my own new rituals that I really needed. I. Now, every midwinter, so at the winter solstice, which is normally around the 21st of December, I hold a bonfire on the beach for closest friends. And it’s the same group every year because we look really forward to it now.
And all we do is we stand around a little fire and watch the sun go down. And, I think when we talk about ritual, we often think it’s got to be a really big, significant thing, and we’ve got to do all this meaning making, and people have to chant words, and we have to hand people this specific idea that they’re supposed to take in.
I don’t believe that about ritual at all. I believe that ritual is a kind of container that we make for ourselves. And we keep it as simple as possible and we step into it and we bring the person we are on that day into the ritual. And the ritual then let us observe ourselves coming in. It will let us see our own state.
And so at midwinter we stand around this bonfire, watch the sun go down. Sometimes it’s raining, sometimes it’s foggy, sometimes we can actually see the sun which feels like a kind of miracle. Sometimes we’re checking our watches to check what sundown time was because otherwise we’d have no idea because this is England and the weather is not great.
Um, either way, when the sun goes down, we turn to each other and we say we’ve turned the year and it’s a beautiful moment of quiet. The Children are running wild over the beach. We are together and you feel the peace fall down on us. And I cannot tell you now how much I look forward to that moment in the year.
It is so simple and so beautiful. And of all the parts of my winter, that is the bit that I cling to the hardest now.
Monica Packer: Now we all want to do that. You should do it. You should. I recommend it. We can have our own, we turn the year moment, which I think would be great. But I also love the small rituals, of, and I love that by the way, what you just shared was simple.
It wasn’t like I have to prepare this huge buffet, like we have to have decor, like we have to have speeches. And yeah, I loved how simple that was. Sometimes being like a bag of chips
Katherine May: to the beach,
Monica Packer: that’s the
Katherine May: catering.
Monica Packer: That’s great. Sign me up. But a mug of tea or like a book of poems that you love to read or a journaling practice, a lot of these rituals are.
actually habits too, which can help us.
Katherine May: Yeah. And I think a really simple one that most people could do is to light a candle on a dark afternoon, not at night. Like we think we’re allowed to, to light candles at nighttime or when we’re in a romantic situation or, whatever You can light a candle whenever you like and it’s always really good.
Like just that pause while you light the flame is always beautiful and it will help. It will help you with whatever you’re going through.
Monica Packer: You are helping me think of Something for me, 2023, I called it my survival year, but now I can say Oh, it was my winter year.
Katherine May: Wintering year. Yeah,
Monica Packer: it was my wintering year.
And one of the rituals that saved me was sourdough. Oh yeah. The whole process of keeping it alive and also kneading the bread. And I even started painting and I’m not really an artist. I started to paint my loaves. with flowers. It was lovely. It was. And it’s so funny because I think of anything personal development, self help.
Thing I could have done. The thing that saved me was a ritual of sourdough.
Katherine May: You had something to take care of outside of yourself. And actually, one of the things that points to as well is the power of somatics, the taking that rest into the body. And when we need bread, we are giving our palms.
Fantastic, deep feedback, like deep pressure and that in itself will help you like you’ll be burning a bit of nervous energy. You’ll be massaging your own hands. You’ll be getting a bit tired. All of those things help hugely as part of the ritual and producing something lovely that you can eat afterwards.
Eating is a great thing to do. I
Monica Packer: didn’t even think of the somatic connection, Katherine.
Katherine May: Yeah. Now I’m just going to go make something else. Yeah. I always make cinnamon buns when I’m fed up. There’s a bit of kneading, there’s a bit of like quite fun shaping. I love watching things rise. Isn’t that just a lovely kind of.
It is. A good feeling thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m eating. Yeah, of course.
Monica Packer: The end product is wonderful too.
Katherine May: Yeah. I tell you the other thing, sorry about baking and cooking when you’re in a winter is that you get to share it and give it away. So I’ll quite often make a preserver or a chutney or a pickle.
Yes. And then I jar it up and give it to someone. And it just, it makes that little spark of connection that, that can just, like you don’t need too much in that time. You don’t want a big conversation. You don’t want a big social outing, but knocking on someone’s door and say, Hey, I made you a jar of pickle.
Thank you. Nice to see you. Yeah. See you soon. Bye. Like sometimes that’s the most we can manage at that point, but it’s enough. It gives us a little of what we need. Yeah. Everything we’ve spoken of
Monica Packer: today is just this delicate. dance, right? Of, of paying attention to yourself, of listening to yourself, but also pushing yourself, which honestly, like when I say pushing yourself, pushing yourself to rest, to slow down in a different way, uh, that I think what we can really hope people take away from this is.
You can do it, you
Katherine May: can do this. Absolutely. You’re finding a different kind of toughness to the one that you thought you needed. And here’s my tip for today. Have a, take a look at your grandmother because your grandmother has been through this. And look at all the little things she does to soothe her way through the day.
They are guides. They are guides. That’s why your grandmother bakes. That’s why she I’m thinking about my grandma, obviously, but she was a great kind of pickler. That’s why she went to the library three times a week. She developed all these habits to take great care of herself, even though she was living a much more restricted life than she would have preferred by that point.
Those people have got wisdom that we do not want to listen to anymore, but they know how to cope with a quiet and life.
Monica Packer: You actually created the perfect note to end on because my typical last question is what is one small way they can take action? And I think that’s it. Look to your grandmother.
Katherine May: Yeah, and take excellent care of yourself.
Monica Packer: Ah, Katherine, this has been such a beautiful, magical interview
Katherine May: for me. Oh, thank you. It’s a lovely conversation. It’s actually really nice to talk in terms of overachieving because it’s definitely one of my diseases. And, uh, it’s There is a, I really understand it.
I really understand the mindset and how hard it is to shift. And I think it’s so important because we deserve to be around and we’ve got to look after ourselves better.
Monica Packer: And we deserve to feel happy,
Katherine May: which is a big part of our book too, right? More than that, content. We deserve to feel content. And I think contentment is very hard for us to achieve because we are too busy trying to achieve other things.
But that feeling of settledness, of calm, of Being satisfied of feeling like we’re enough and that we have enough and that we’ve done enough. That’s the state that we deserve.
Monica Packer: I want to direct people to the book, Wintering. We’ll make sure we link to that as well as How We Live Now, your podcast. Is there anywhere else you would like them to go?
Katherine May: I write a regular substack at kathrynmay. substack. com where we quite often talk about just this kind of thing as much as we can. And I’ve got really into sharing journaling prompts recently, which, um, which we all love. Like I do them, I share them, I hear everyone’s results, like it’s really fun.
So that might be really nice for some of you.
Monica Packer: Yeah, I think you’ll get me out of my one line a day, uh, which is all I can muster because my brain is fried by the time I journal.
Katherine May: So I love that. There’s a journaling technique of a sentence a day. Did you know that? Yes. Uh, mine is just more
Monica Packer: had a good day.
That’s
Katherine May: fine. I guess it counts. That’s really fine.
Monica Packer: But I would, there are days where I’m like, I would like more, I just don’t know what to write about. So there we go. That would be great.
Katherine May: Let it be.
Monica Packer: Yeah.
Katherine May: Yeah.
Monica Packer: Oh, Katherine. You’re the best. Thank you so much for taking the time. Oh, no, thank you. It’s been
Katherine May: lovely.
Thank you.
Monica Packer: Genuinely tried not to cry at the end.
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