In today’s conversation with Julie Rose, we delved into her journey as a radio journalist and podcast host, discussing how she tackles challenging topics and leans into uncomfortable conversations. Julie shared valuable strategies on how to approach discussions around contentious issues with curiosity and empathy, rather than resorting to debates or trying to persuade.
We explored the importance of setting intentions, maintaining emotional awareness, and focusing on understanding the person rather than winning an argument. Julie also provided practical tips for initiating and navigating these conversations in a way that builds deeper relationships and mutual understanding. This episode is packed with actionable advice for anyone looking to improve their communication skills, especially in difficult or sensitive conversations.
Last time Julie and I chatted!
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TRANSCRIPT
Monica Packer: Julie Rose, welcome to about progress.
Julie Rose: Monica, it’s so great to be here. Thanks.
Monica Packer: This has been a long time coming and I am so pleased to finally welcome you. formally and officially into the show, but we’ve been talking for a while and we’ve been able to talk in a variety of ways.
I’m also a huge fan of you and your work, which is a big part of what I wanted to discuss today because you’ve had a very unusual job. So how about you just tell people first what that unusual job has been
Julie Rose: Yeah, so I have been a radio journalist for 20 years started out in public radio. The last 11 years I was doing live radio for BYU radio on Sirius XM. So interviewing people in depth, two hours a day live on the radio. I mean,
over the course of seven years. It was like 10, 000 interviews over the course of seven years where I really learned some skills about how to make a conversation work in a live radio setting.
And then two and a half, almost three years ago, we transitioned our shows to podcast. And so I’ve had the chance to really zero in on the kind of, um, conversations around That I want to have and that I think we would all do better if we had had models of that in our lives. So that’s really become my passion over the last couple of years.
Monica Packer: And so you’ve had a couple podcasts with BYU Radio. Can you tell us what they are just for people who want to already
Julie Rose: Yeah. So top of mind with Julie Rose, uh, is the podcast that we’ve been doing for three years. And that’s one where we take Each episode takes one tough topic and we look for perspectives. It’s a, it’s a 53 minute podcast. We look for perspectives that are going to challenge us to see things in a slightly different light.
We want, I talk, no hot takes is one of my, my main roles. I’m not interested in
inflaming your emotions. I want to,
I want to come away from my news consumption, feeling empathetic and optimistic. And empowered, but I also don’t want to just avoid the news. I mean, that was one of the big things a couple of years ago that inspired our approach to the podcast is that I was one of the 40 percent of Americans who just was like bummed out by the news and, and like avoiding conversations about important topics and just not, you know, because it just felt, it felt depressing, divisive, overwhelming.
I
mean, so, uh, we created. That’s been one of the guiding stars, the motivations for this podcast, Top of Mind, is to try to help people engage with a tough topic in a way, hear from people with personal perspectives. Um, and here’s something that will challenge them. We don’t take a side on any of these issues.
I mean, you know, immigration, race, uh, uh, various political reforms, lots and lots of different topics. Um, and we, my promise to you is that no matter what your perspective is on the topic, you’re going to hear something in the course of that hour. That will challenge you a little
bit, and that’s by design because that’s an important skill for us to practice, but it’s also an opportunity to recognize blind spots and to sort of see things as more nuanced and more complex, which I think helps us to have better conversations about these important topics in our life.
So that’s what top of mind is. And then in the course of that process, uh, I was marinating on this idea of being able to stay uncomfortable
when the thing that challenges your perspective confronts you and how hard that feels a lot of times, because we want to get defensive or we want to lash out. And so I started looking for people for examples of that.
Um, because these opportunities arise in our daily life all the time, whether it’s some tough feedback we have that we can choose to engage with or dismiss, or it’s, you know, it can encountering a perspective in the media that really challenges us and deciding if we’re going to actually consume it, listen and think, or are we just going to dismiss it? Or it’s a conversation or it’s being outside of our comfort zone. And deciding to stay uncomfortable just a little bit. Stay curious and open and see what happens, see what we might be able to learn. Um, so that began a conversation series that was, um, embedded in top of mind. You actually joined me to tell a story about a year ago, which I loved that chance, um, these stick with it moments.
We
call them where you stick with the discomfort. And then, uh, just this last July, we spun those off into their own podcast. So it’s called Uncomfy, Sticking with Moments that Challenge Us, and every single week we’ve got a short story, a real story from a real person about a time when they did just what I described, and we try to learn how can we do that a little bit more in our own lives.
Monica Packer: Well, not only is your work unusual, as we stated, I think you are unusual in your willingness to lean into the discomfort that so many of us avoid, including with the people that we love the most. I hear all the time about people who have different opinions, whether it’s with, uh, personal faith or politics or food preferences.
I mean, some people can get really mad about those, you know, within a family and it’s difficult to do is something I think most of us avoid. But I love how you have leaned in and I love how you have challenged us to do so and to stick with it. And in that spirit, we’re going to be talking about that today.
Like how can we better lean into these uncomfy situations and hard conversations with people that we love and respect, and maybe even people that we don’t know that well, because that can happen as well. To start though, I wanted to know more about this. I feel like in an in a way. An innate skill in you to dig in and to be okay with the discomfort and to have this sense of curiosity instead of fear or, um, defensiveness that is so easy to have in these hard conversations.
So where did that come from first? I need a little bit of the Julie Rose background
Julie Rose: Sure. Um, it’s interesting because on the one hand, yes, I am innately curious. I mean, curiosity is the key for me to this whole process. I am not naturally good at, um, um, staying present in discomfort. So, so I’ve had to figure out why that is and learn some skills to layer on top of my curiosity. But the curiosity really is the superpower in this.
I’ve, I believe, and because it’s the ability to, when Confronted with a perspective that makes us that I disagree with deeply, or that somehow challenges my own worldview. Uh, it’s the ability to say, ah, tell me more about that. Uh, there’s more I’d like to understand rather than just be like, well, that does not fit in my,
You know, the way I see the world. And now I’m feeling big emotions. Please stop. Um, so for me, it’s rooted in this natural curiosity. I mean, I was born to be a journalist. I wanted to be a
basically I was doing I was in the back room of our sixth grade and trailer that our classroom was in was like a portable trailer in my elementary school. And we had this like little teeny backroom office and my sixth grade teacher started a sixth grade newspaper. And I was like, first to sign up back there with the typewriter and the whiteout, you
know, writing reports about what was going on. Um, so, And I’ve always been one that’s like kind of impertinent almost in my, in my questions, a little bit nosy.
So sometimes conversations with me can get, feel a little like an interrogation, but it made my job. It’s, I was
naturally somebody who wants to learn. And I do find challenging ideas and inconsistencies more intriguing than off putting in most cases. So I really love to hear something that stumps me.
And, or, or that really surprises me because it doesn’t quite fit the way I thought the world fit together. And then, you know, and then I have 15 questions I need to ask because I want to get inside of that. So those two things for sure were, uh, are just part of my nature. Um, what I have re it’s been a surprise to me to realize that that’s not how everybody functions.
Like some people just, I guess curiosity is more of a muscle for a lot of us. Um, I was born with more of that muscle intact, I suppose. Um, but I also have realized that I’m really good at that in my journalistic life, but porting it over into my personal life is, is more of a challenge. And I hadn’t really connected those dots until actually quite recently in the last couple of years.
Monica Packer: Hmm. I’m letting that sit because for me, I very much feel that is similar , and I’ve actually heard this from a good friend who’s a therapist and she’s like, I am a great listener and it’s harder to do in real life. Uh, so I actually love that you’re sharing. You know, some of these are innate things that you’ve just were born with, and others are skills that you’ve developed, and you can still see some areas of it that you want to improve upon.
And I, and that’s who I like to learn from, Julie. I like to learn from people who are experts, but not like the, I know everything black and white experts, ones who are still willing to learn and to, to evolve. So with these thousands of conversations you’ve had, I’m sure you’ve learned some things just about humanity.
In general and things about humanity that have shaped the way that you have now learned and chosen to show up to people that you do not really agree with all the time. So before we kind of get into more of the tips and like handling, uh, conversations practically let’s talk about the bigger lessons that help you show up differently. What are some of those that you’ve had?
Julie Rose: Yeah. So
especially things that have come, um, because again, like what I’ve learned has come through, uh, my professional experience as somebody trying to deploy curiosity for understanding. And then really in the last couple of years, kind of going to school, For myself, through a lot of reading and study and experimentation to try to understand why there was this disconnect for me, why,
for example, I could, I could show up and keep my curiosity in the front of mind when I was hearing things that I disagreed with personally or that felt challenging or confusing or frustrating and in a professional setting, it would like a light up all of my, uh, I don’t know, neurotransmitters and I was getting like these endorphins and it just felt thrilling to be in the discovery phase. Learning and seeing into a perspective that I hadn’t hadn’t really ever gotten inside of before. And then I would drop by my mom’s house after work and she would have a specific TV channel on and be telling me, uh, who these political candidates that she donated to that day because she was really into politics and zero curiosity at all.
I would go straight to complete certainty.
And I must convince her to stop doing this. It might be a scam. She shouldn’t be wasting her limited income. You know, that’s not a candidate that’s worthy of your money. Like immediately I was doing all of these things. No curiosity whatsoever. And never stopping to kind of lean into exploring, like, How did it make you feel to donate?
Why do you enjoy doing this particular thing? What do you like about this particular candidate? What issues are most important to you? And sort of what’s interesting that you’ve learned today as you’ve been watching this particular news channel? And what are some of the things that are, you know, like, especially important to you right now? Um, I said that one of the things I realized was that, Emotion was the difference.
Monica Packer: Got it.
Julie Rose: I could, I could keep my emotions in check because I wasn’t as personally invested when I was,
when I was at work doing an interview about something.
But when I allowed my, my personal self to show up, emotions very quickly could derail my curiosity.
So that’s become a really important lesson for me. Not that emotions are invalid, that we need to ignore them, that they’re not okay. But being very aware of how quickly emotions can completely turn off my. my curiosity muscle and take a conversation in a direction that I don’t want to be. So that’s one thing for sure that I’ve learned.
And another thing is really about setting, setting an intention to
understand and not persuade. Um, again, in my professional life, it’s not my job as the journalist interviewer, at least not in the way that I was doing it. I wasn’t a pundit. I wasn’t looking to persuade anyone, even the listener. I wanted to get to a deeper, fuller, clearer understanding.
Monica Packer: Mm hmm.
Julie Rose: that would be my goal in my professional question asking. And then I would, again, go into my personal life and it was like, mom, you got to stop supporting this person. You got to, you know, it was, it was all about persuasion.
Um, and so realizing that, that it could be worth having a conversation with someone who I care, who I love, who I disagree with deeply.
Maybe I’m even worried about the way that some of their views might be affecting their life. But I, but I have to start with. One intention only, and that is to understand, because if I can’t build that foundation, if they don’t know that I understand them, that I care to understand them, then their defenses are immediately up, and I mean, that’s why it always went wrong whenever I would try to talk to my mom about this,
because she has Always could tell that I wasn’t interested in understanding.
I was interested in telling her how wrong or silly she was being
and you know, so the conversations were not productive and I never really learned anything
Monica Packer: Yeah.
Julie Rose: except for that. There was no way I could persuade her and that only just frustrated me more.
Monica Packer: Well, and you know, it’s funny you brought up the emotions piece first, but, uh, that intention piece I think is felt emotionally as well, that the same words can feel different on both sides. Because of the emotion behind it, like it translates to both things. And we’re so smart as humans that we can pick up on someone asking questions out of curiosity or asking questions to then lead you in another direction or to persuade you, so those really go hand in hand to me.
Julie Rose: Yeah. Yeah. So I realized, um, that most often when these conversations were going poorly, um, it was because my intention was not to understand or to listen.
It was to figure out how to say the right thing to make them change their mind.
Monica Packer: Okay.
Julie Rose: And then of course, the question that I’ve had to grapple with, um, is what’s the point of going there if they’re not going to change their mind? Like, wouldn’t it be better just to let her do her thing and ignore it?
Monica Packer: Yeah.
Julie Rose: And, yes, if my goal is to change her mind, like that very, very rarely happens.
So if the choice is we just don’t talk about politics or it devolves into acrimony and uncomfortableness and in a way that damages our relationship, then yeah, I choose let’s not talk.
Monica Packer: sure. Okay,
Julie Rose: around because I, I don’t think we see it modeled very often. We certainly don’t see it modeled in television. We certainly don’t see it modeled in political discourse. And even in a lot of our media, you know, people like somebody wins, somebody loses, right?
If there’s an argument, somebody’s going to win, somebody’s going to lose. We don’t see a lot of just people trying to understand one another for the sake of understanding. And that’s the thing that, that has been one of the biggest eye openers for me is realizing that avoiding and. Contentious argument are not my only two options.
And that that even if what I’m doing is just sitting and hearing with a lot of discomfort, the many reasons that my mother is choosing to vote or believe or behave in a certain way around her political ideas that I mean, it’s honestly one of my great regrets that before she died, I didn’t actually spend a lot of time.
She died a couple of years ago, and I never And I never took the time and I didn’t really feel like I had the skills to actually come to understand more closely what it was that, like how she felt, why politics was so important. Why was she so engaged in this way? I couldn’t answer a lot of those questions because I never was able to have a curious conversation with her. I think often the payoff of these conversations, if it’s just about understanding, no one’s changing their minds, but we’re deepening a relationship. I’m feeling new empathy. Which I think is always beneficial and often sometimes I get to more clarity about my own views.
Monica Packer: And I think it releases all the angst and anxiety, sometimes anger. I just used all A words. I’m like very impressed with whatever just
happened there.
Julie Rose: nice alliteration there, Monica.
Monica Packer: Well, that’s a one time thing, but you know, it can release those emotions for us,
which is, I mean, if you’re going to think about this selfishly, you know, That’s sure a nice thing to be able to do to release all of those.
You know, you made me realize one of the reasons I feel like we are not modeled this type of conversation with those intentions really is because so much out there, now I see this in the personal development world, but it’s definitely true in news and, and, and politics for sure is the level of certainty that people have in the sharing that there is only one way.
They’re very unwilling to go into the nuance of anything, into the gray of anything. They’re unwilling to, portray themselves as anything but an expert. So I would love to hear a little bit more about that too, because I think that is especially unique to your professional and I’m sure even personal experience with, with that, that lesson.
Mm
Julie Rose: up because I do think that it’s one of the reasons why I often avoided having complex conversations about difficult topics in my daily life. in my personal
life when I felt like the stakes were higher because these are people I’m in relationship with and I want to stay in relationship with.
Whereas in, in a work scenario, it was, it was, uh, you know, I was okay, not necessarily knowing all of the answers, but also I would spend so much time preparing in advance so that most of the questions I was asking, I kind of knew what the answer was going to be,
um, which you kind of have to do. If you’re in live radio, because I have 20 minutes to make a really interesting conversation and I can’t just spend 20 minutes fishing for stuff because the listener is going to be like enough already. What I realized is that there’s, there’s a level of uncertainty in, in engaging in these conversations with someone on two fronts that I have to be okay with the possibility that they’re going to raise ideas that are going to surprise or challenge me. And also that. I have to be okay with my own uncertainty about the topic.
I think that’s one of the big deterrents. So I mean, think about what’s happening on on on cable news, right? It’s going to be a three minute conversation. They’ve got somebody on one side, somebody on the other side. And both of those people have clearly prepared like they were probably debaters in high school. I was not on the debate team in high school. I am not good at expressing a real zinger of a comeback. In, in a, on a complex political topic, and in most cases, I don’t feel like I know everything enough to be a competent debater. Pick your topic, right?
Immigration, abortion, economic inequality, or taxes, or tariffs, or what, or trade, right? So much to know, and I think I was a little bit stuck thinking that I couldn’t engage in these kinds of conversations with people in my life until I felt like I knew every possible angle and that I was absolutely certain not only what my position was. But that I was absolutely the right one, that I was in the right. Monica Guzman, who’s a senior fellow at Braver Angels, which is a depolarization nonprofit that I really enjoy being part of, um, who’s, she’s also written a book called I Never Thought of It That Way. She talks about how certainty is the enemy of curiosity. The minute you feel certain about something, there is, you’re no longer curious because why would you be?
Monica Packer: Yeah, that tracks. I think that tracks in many ways, and I’m also reliving my own conversations where they went so poorly because I felt like I had to have a very clear black and white stance. To whatever we were discussing, um, and how I wasn’t even sure if that’s what the right answer was
Julie Rose: then that makes you
feel, you feel insecure, you feel embarrassed, you feel defensive. And then you’re like circling around your words because it feels
like you’re not making your point. And then they’re like maybe putting it back at you. It’s stunning to me how much of a, an empowering release it is to be okay, to allow yourself to say, in the course of that conversation. You know, that’s a really good point. I’m not sure that I agree with it, but I also, I’m not sure why, or this is, uh, you know, this is an area of this topic that I’m actually kind of torn about, like on the one hand, but also on the other hand, I mean, most of us have. more nuance and complexity and uncertainty in our positions than we, than we let on, or than we think is okay.
But it’s actually in that complexity. I mean, it diffuses the conversation quite quickly, because if you’re willing to be humble and honest and say, you know what, that’s fine. This is something I never thought of before. I’m going to do some more. Tell me more about that, or I’m going to, I’m going to look into that a little bit more. It also relieves us of the pressure of having to come up with just the perfect response to, you know, come back,
right? And if you’re thinking of this as a debate, you’re not actually listening to the other person. You’re picking up on one or two little keywords that they’re saying, and then you’re like, all right, well, and then I’m formulating my response, right?
That’s not how you get to understanding. That’s how you try to win an argument. But as
we’ve already established, in most of these instances, that can’t be your goal. Otherwise, it’s not going to go well.
Monica Packer: We all need to needle point. A conversation is not a debate, you know,
and, and if that’s the real framework we can go into these with, I think that will make a huge difference alone. And actually, let’s talk more about some practical tips on when they are brave enough to have these conversations and they are uncomfortable and they’re difficult.
And they’re probably new to some extent, or at least done in a new way for some relationships that maybe are not accustomed to having. Curiosity driven conversations. What would you tell the women who are ready to try this? Some helpful tips. Hmm.
Julie Rose: one thing that I often find pretty common is that people are like, it’s never gone well and I don’t know how to change the track that we’re on, you know, there is this particular person in my life that I’d like to be able to have these conversations and either it’s gone so badly so many times that we now just don’t even touch it. We’ve made a mutual agreement that we’re just not going to go there. I think a lot of families and friend circles are in that environment. Um, so there’s just no like history to understand that you might be coming to this with a different intent now. And so I think for that purpose, in most of these instances, sometimes somebody will come at you and it’ll just all of a sudden be there.
You didn’t invite it. You can deploy some of the tactics I’m going to describe, but I think in a lot of cases, if we’re going to go out and seek to make change. a conversation like this happen. We have to do so in a very intentional way. So I think some, it’s about assessing the moment, right? Are we just about to start eating or say the prayer or whatever?
Are we, uh, you know, am I tired and grumpy? Do I have the emotional capacity? Even though this seems like the perfect opportunity to talk to my sibling about this at this family gathering, you know, is it, is it noisy? Does it, do they seem distracted? Um, so assess the moment. It doesn’t have to be perfect and you also don’t need, you know, Two hours of uninterrupted time, five to 10 minutes can actually do a lot of good in this case.
There’s a lot you could learn in that amount of time. So assess the moment just sort of like, all right, I’m going to give this a shot. It seems like there’s a few minutes here. There’s my window. Set your intention like we talked about. I’m here to understand and my goal really is just for the next couple of minutes.
I’m going to only ask questions at least for the first five minutes of this conversation. All I’m doing is asking questions. And then I think it’s actually really important in a lot of these cases, if you have bad history, um, is to ask for permission and sort of make your intention clear so that you can try saying something like, Hey, I’m sorry. I think, you know, we disagree on this particular topic, but I’ve been really, and then just be honest with them. But I, but I’ve been really trying to better understand perspectives that are different from my own. And I would, would you be willing to have a, have helped me, you know, have a conversation with me for the next few minutes that would help me to better understand your perspective. I really just want to understand better. I think that that, you know, because you matter to me, this topic matters to me. And, and I’m looking to, you know, just gain better understanding, just like however you need to say it to be very clear. Like, I want to understand, because they’re going to be, if you just launch into your, Hey, so let’s talk about your position on abortion.
I know we disagree, you know, immediately all the defenses are going to be up. Even when you say, I just really want to understand, they’re going to be like, yeah, but does she really? You know, because maybe you have a reputation or you’ve established a bad track record with that person. So then really it is about following through on your intention
and launching into that conversation.
I find that it’s especially valuable to focus my attention on the person and not the issue.
Monica Packer: Okay.
Julie Rose: So I’m actually not having this conversation with you because I want to better understand the issue. I want to better understand why you. How you, Monica, feel about it and why.
And so that changes the kinds of questions that I’m asking.
Monica Packer: hmm.
Julie Rose: It’s not, what do you think about this topic? It’s more like, is there a personal experience? Is there something you’ve experienced in your life that has shaped the way you feel about this topic? one of my favorites, always asking for an experience. Um, has your view on this changed over time? What was an important turning point for you? Another one can be, what’s What’s at the heart of this issue for you so that so that your questions are not don’t feel like they are, you know, asking them to state every single argument in for or against as if they’re in a political debate, but that that you’re sending the signal through your questions that you want to understand their heart on this issue. And their path on this issue, and that’s going to go a long, long ways, and you might at certain points feel like, okay, now I need to rebut because they what they just said there is clearly wrong or clearly whatever. And I would urge you, especially in these early moments to. Stay true to your intent to understand, resist the urge
Monica Packer: Hmm.
Julie Rose: to offer your perspective
and remind yourself that understanding is not the same as agreeing. It’s okay if they’re saying something and you don’t immediately come back and say, like, I don’t agree with that. I mean, you already know that you disagree, like you’re in the building a relationship and understanding phase. What happens sometimes is that after, you know, them sharing for a few minutes, they may, they may just keep on sharing because we love it when people are like truly interested in us. Um, they might actually say, well, what do you think about it? Or is that not what you think, right? If they turn it back on you, then. Be prepared to share an experience of your own and share your heart on this issue instead of jumping straight to, well, there’s this data point, and there’s this data
point, and there’s this data point, because then it’s going to become, then they’re going to be like, oh, well, if that’s the game we’re playing, I thought we were doing something else.
Now, you know, now I have to come back and all of a sudden you’re back into debate mode.
So really keep it focused on the people that you’re talking to. And then what I think is that try, you know, you may find that it’s so engaging that this is going and going and going. And that’s great. Um, it may, you may find that after a couple of back and forth, like this is getting really hard for you to kind of keep your emotions in
check and, and you can just sort of graciously thank them and mean it. And leave the conversation.
You don’t have to solve the world’s problems and you’re not going to change anybody. We already established that. So you’re aiming for more understanding. And then you can say, you know, thank you. Thank you so much for being that probably wasn’t easy for you. I know it’s kind of scary to talk about stuff like this, but I just really appreciate you sharing, sharing your thoughts with me.
Then maybe you can have that conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Let’s go eat some pie. Exactly. Exactly.
Monica Packer: There’s so many good conversation starters, but also extenders and finishers there that I think you need to come up with your own guide on that alone, because I think that’s what we’re typically lasting is just some, some of the language there of what we can use, because like you said, the emotions are easy to come up and Jump in the driver’s seat.
But if we have some of those go to’s that we can just pull out from what you said, Julie, I think that’s going to be really helpful when we’re, um, trying to direct things in a way that’s productive for these kinds of conversations. This was so helpful and I can’t wait for people to try it out. And I, I have, you know, of course, two more questions for you that I can’t help, but ask, but first what, how would someone know to not have a conversation?
Yeah.
Julie Rose: I mean, I think we always, you could always extend yourself the grace of like, this isn’t the right time. I think if you’re, if you, I think what’s challenging about this is that, you know, sort of our lizard brain, what like innate autonomic nervous system responds to threats and gives us the sense that we’re at risk, um, when in fact we are just uncomfortable.
And so the better you can get, and I find mindfulness techniques really useful in this way to sort of check in with what my body is telling me and what my logical brain is telling me and what my emotions are telling me and assess whether or not I truly am at risk. There are some cases where you may truly be at risk or your personal well being.
Um, I think these conversations are always going to be easier when, when you’re not, when it doesn’t go straight to the like the core of your identity and you feel like the other person you’re trying, you’re talking with is attacking your identity in a dehumanizing way.
So I think anytime the other person, if the other person is, is, you know, is, is not extending you the grace and the dignity of your humanity in their conversation, you absolutely. Probably. I mean, I would back, I would step out.
I would, you know, sort of thank them and step away from the conversation. Um, I think these conversations always go better when we prepare for them and make sort of a mindful intent to engage in them. But there are lots of opportunities that these things pop up to us in our, in our daily lives.
And one of the ones that I frequently that I think about lately is, uh, you know, they’ll come at like the other person will bring it to you. And I have a choice in that moment. In fact, there’s a, so one of the ones I think about a lot is, um, I had done an episode of my podcast and I had done an interview about a topic that people sometimes feel strongly about, cultural appropriation, trying to, you know, some people think that it’s not a thing.
Some people think that it’s really harmful. And I was trying to understand sort of what’s the nuance there. That’s what we do on the podcast. I felt like it was a really nuanced conversation. And I have a friend I’ve known for years and years and years and years. Yeah. Um, who feels very strongly about some things in politics.
And we frequently will kind of discuss those things. He texted me and he said, I heard your podcast. And then he immediately was like, why are you even giving airtime to this issue? And he was using kind of all of these dismissive words, you know, that immediately made me feel, uh, feel,
defensive because I felt like he was.
He was criticizing my, my work and, and, and I felt to me, I was like, I don’t think he listened to the conversation. I think he just saw the summary of it. And he’s, he’s reacting and I was getting annoyed and I was like wanting to kind of defend myself and. I was just about to sort of go into the like, well, there’s this and there’s this and there’s this kind of a thing to express what I had learned and where I came down on the issue after having heard this conversation, which, because it seemed like we had some daylight between our positions on that. And I realized in that moment that it was about to turn into yet another one of these unsatisfying, frustrating conversations that might actually be the last time we interacted. Like it felt to me like this was a moment where I might. Unfriend him, you know, and I, luckily because it was text, I did have this moment.
And I think this happens a lot on social media too. I don’t know that texts and social media are always the best way to go about this, but I realized in this moment that, um, that I had a choice to make so my choices were. I’m just gonna be like, okay, thanks, whatever, maybe, you know, end the conversation or ghost him just like not respond or, or I could, I could, I could try to see if there was something here that I could learn. I wasn’t interested in changing my perspective and I was pretty sure he wasn’t either. But is it was there something I could learn that might maybe there’s something that I’ve missed something in a blind spot or could I at least have could at least deepen this relationship in some way. Because I I would like to retain this friendship. So I decided to try that, you know, time to try some of your own, your own advice here, Julie, in this particular case, when what I really wanted to do was just not deal with it. Um, so over the course of the next 10 to 15 minutes, we went back and forth kind of furiously with our thumbs.
Uh, at least I felt like I was, um, but I, I was Everything I was doing was trying to ask questions. Occasionally I’d be like, well, I actually kind of think this, but it’s a little bit complicated. And here’s how I can, I was trying to show a little bit of my own complexity, but mostly what I was doing was asking what, what is this? Why does this matter to you? And why do you feel this way about it? And, I wasn’t asking the personal, like the experience questions as much as I, in hindsight, thought, realize I should have, but we got there anyway, because a couple of minutes into this conversation, he, uh, He all of a sudden says, uh, in this text, I, I feel pretty strongly about this.
I’m sure you can tell part of it is because and then he tells me this experience he had where he had once, I guess it wasn’t that long ago. His kid is now maybe like a teenager, but his wife had posted on her Facebook page like a photo from when they’re grown kid, their teenage kid was like a toddler and wearing a sombrero and it was like a little cute baby photo and they, I don’t know, maybe they’re at a Mexican restaurant or something. And somebody like stuck a little fake mustache on him. They’re like, Oh, it’s an R cute little baby. So she posted this on her Facebook page and he shared it on his Facebook page. And then, um, he just got slammed in a very public and sort of humiliating way by some people at work and his like, uh, suddenly it crossed over into work and it just became, and it was, it was deeply embarrassing to him and hurtful and really, you know, made him dig in on this issue of. You know, people are calling people out for this thing, and it’s not a thing and how ridiculous and you know, he just because he felt hurt and humiliated. And when he shared that with me, I was like, I get it. I get it. Okay. I would have felt really embarrassed and humiliated too. And, you know, and from that point forward, I was able to express some empathy and be just kind of recognize like, oh, okay, so there’s a personal, there’s some, there’s some personal feelings here that I, that that are important for me to understand that help explain why he is so certain and kind of, you know, Explosive in the way he feels about this, because a lot of that has been brewing for him and he’s got personal experience with it.
And I’m going to just validate that. And the conversation went on just a little bit longer. Um, you know, he didn’t change his views, but we were sort of seeing each other a little more in a little bit more of a humanity. And at the end of that conversation, it was like, you know, I was like, thank you for sharing that.
I, you know, I feel like I have a better understanding. Of course, we still disagree, but, you know, I, I, I’ve enjoyed having this conversation. He’s like, yeah, we totally did the top of mind thing. And that was great. Like for us, it was both really energizing
when it totally could have been the
Monica Packer: Mm hmm.
Julie Rose: So for me, that was just a real lesson about how these opportunities can come at you at any given moment. Sometimes I can control the scenario and I can be come into it very mindfully, but I also have the ability when they arise to sort of pause and make a choice. To try to see if it can go some other direction. I always, I could have bailed out at any given moment if it felt unsafe.
And there have been times where we’ve had conversations where I’m like, I’m really not comfortable with the words that you’re using in this particular scenario. So I think please don’t use those words anymore. Like we can set boundaries.
Absolutely. Um, but it was, it was, it’s, it was surprisingly, uh, engaging and just energizing to be able to communicate in that way when we could both establish that we cared about one another as people.
Monica Packer: hmm. And that’s what I so want for the people who are listening today, to be able to leave a conversation feeling that way, instead of down or angry, um, and just, uh, ruminating. I mean, some of these conversations, they can become things for years that we keep thinking about that may never be resolved. So to be able to live with a different experience and history is, is really powerful.
Uh, so Julie, you shared a little bit. An answer to the other question I was going to ask you about a difficult conversation that you had and, um, I do have a final question for you, but first I would like to just have you share where people should go who, who want to learn more about you and your work and to listen in on, uh, your podcast.
Julie Rose: Absolutely. So the easiest way is just to open up your favorite podcast app, wherever you’re listening right now to About Progress and search for Top of Mind with Julie Rose. And my other podcast is Uncomfy. Sticking with moments that challenge us. That one’s a video podcast as well. So that’s kind of fun.
You can watch it on Spotify or YouTube. Yeah. And then I share frequently, um, I’m sharing some of the more like tips and ideas on how to engage with the news and how to have conversations, things that I’m thinking about or learning. I try to do a fair amount of that on my own Instagram. So it’s I underscore M underscore Julie underscore Rose.
Just look for Julie Rose. You’ll probably find me.
Monica Packer: Okay, great. We will make sure we link to everything. And we like to end with this final question because we’ve covered a lot of ground today in ways that I think are very hopeful, um, but also still overwhelming for people who have not done any of this before. So is there one thing they can do, just one small way they can take action on what they learned today from
Julie Rose: Yeah, you?
can right now this very minute. This is my very favorite hack for boosting my confidence in my ability to do this thing. And that is, I will go to the opinion page of whatever newspaper or website. I’ll scan for the, scan for the opinion piece that you most disagree with. You can tell just from the headline
that it’s making your blood boil. And then I’m going to read the whole thing, top to bottom, every single word, even when I feel like I really want to stop, even when I, and those moments when I feel like I’m like, I’ve heard enough, or how
could they think this? I’m going to pause, I’m going to notice my reaction, and I’m going to think of a question that I would ask that person
if I were sitting across from them right now. And as I continue to read, I’m going to look for moments that, for aspects of it that surprise me. If they go in a direction I hadn’t thought. Or if they’re expressing the opinion in a way that I haven’t heard before, or if something feels a little contradictory, I’m not going to get frustrated about that.
I’m gonna get curious about it. I wonder, that’s interesting. I wonder how those two things fit together for them. And, uh, I’m going to think about what my life and experiences would have to be in order for me to hold the same perspective. What I find is that that’s a very, very, very, very quick way to recognize what are the things that I need to practice and
think about and work on?
Where are the danger zones for me?
Because that’s effectively the exact process you’re doing when you engage with someone. But the more I have practiced engaging with this person in an honest and under, you know, seek to understand a way, um, in like in my other consumption, uh, the more I’ve practiced that, The more confident I feel in my ability to do that when the stakes are high,
Monica Packer: Beautiful. I love how doable that is, but also still like just enough of a discomfort that we can practice being in that uncomfy space that you know
so
Julie Rose: and it’ll only take 15 minutes of your day, depending on
how long it is or how hard it is.
Monica Packer: Yeah, I mean, you could even set a timer. I mean, yeah, set a timer to this. Julie, this has been such a remarkable episode, and I know it’s going to help a lot of people and a lot of relationships, so thank you so much for being here and for your hard work.
Um, it’s really making a big difference.
Julie Rose: Monica, I love the community that you built and it’s just been an honor to be here.
Monica Packer: Thank you again. Okay, that was so great. Let me just press stop here.
So before we kind of get into more of the tips and like handling, uh, conversations practically and even tactically or tactfully, tactfully.
What’s the word?
Tactically. That’s the word. Okay. So practically and tactically, I’m just gonna take that out practically. Let’s talk about the bigger lessons that help you show up differently.
