It’s okay, and normal, that our romantic relationships change over time. What can be challenging is when we feel disconnected from the change
Emily Nagoski, award-winning author and sex educator, and I discuss the common myths we’re all conditioned to carry around longterm committed relationships, the truth about those myths, and how we can, against all the odds thrown at us, learn to come back to each other, together.
Emily’s message of compassion, authenticity, and curiosity underscores the profound significance of prioritizing pleasure and communication in our relationships. Through candid conversations and a willingness to challenge societal norms, she reminds us that we hold the keys to unlocking real intimacy and joy in our lives.
About a few other things…
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TRANSCRIPT
Monica Packer: Emily Nagoski. Welcome to about progress.
Emily Nagoski: I’m so excited to talk to you again.
Monica Packer: Oh, well, the honor is mine. I mean, I have just been buzzed for weeks and looking forward to this. You are a sexpert, yes, you’re a sexpert.
And I learned so much from your first book, Come As You Are, as well as Burnout with your sister, Emilia Nagoski, who we’ve also been lucky enough to have on the show. But this is I feel like a continuation of everything I’ve learned from you so far, and an expansion so I think it’s so fun. Um, to know the story though behind this, because I’ve heard you share it on your podcast and then in your book, it was fun to read it there too, that even as an expert, there was a time where you found it really difficult to practice what you preach in your own committed long term relationship.
So can you start by telling us about that?
Emily Nagoski: Yeah, I’m so glad you experienced as an expansion and deepening of my work so far, because that is the story of how this book came to be. You might think that the process of writing and talking and thinking and reading about sex all the time could be super sexy, uh, but it turns out, no. The process of writing Come As You Are was so stressful that I lost all interest in actually having any
I finished the book, things got a little better, I went on book tour, things got a lot worse. Um, and I tried to follow my own advice. From, come as you are. Responsive desire. You know, you put your body in the bed, you let your skin touch your partner’s skin, and your body goes, Oh, right. I like this person. I like this.
What a good idea this was. And instead I would put my body in the bed, let my skin touch my partner’s skin, and I would cry and fall asleep. And I thought, Oh, I need more advice than I give in my own book.
So I did it. What anyone would do, I went to Google Scholar, and I looked at the research that actually talks to people who have excellent sex lives, asking them how they do it and how they got to have those sex lives.
How they sustain a sexual connection across. expanses of time. And what I found there contradicted the entire sort of mainstream discourse around sex and long term relationships. Because, I mean, very much at the time that I was doing this research, there was this conversation that’s basically, uh, is intimacy the enemy of the erotic and you need distance to keep the spark alive?
Or is intimacy the foundation of the erotic and you need closeness to keep the spark alive? And when you talk to people who have great sex lives, they don’t talk about spark. It barely scrapes into the top 10 characteristics of spectacular sex. It they just, it’s just not part of what makes sex worth having.
Instead they talk about authenticity and vulnerability. They talk about pleasure. Above all, they talk about empathy as being the foundation of really extraordinary sex. So I was reading this and I was like, Oh, how come I’ve never read this in a book? Uh, and my, my agent pointed out that I should probably write it.
Monica Packer: Well, that’s a good agent. And also you need that kind of person, right? Who’s, who’s telling you, um, that’s you, that’s you and need it from you. what are the things that people think this isn’t normal I think all of us think we are exceptions in so many ways. And that was my biggest takeaway from Come As You Are is that we are all actually normal. Like anything we wonder about, even from how our body looks to how sex may feel, we are all normal. Normal,
Emily Nagoski: are going in a way we are like, this is like disturbing or distressing or I’m dissatisfied with what’s happening. That’s your sexuality functioning normally in a world that is determined to break your sexuality. Like, your sexuality is struggling to be its full self in a world that’s totally determined to make you dislike everything about your erotic body.
Monica Packer: Okay. I mean, mic drop right there, but true. And, and, and you’re right though. When we see that picture, we make it less about, Oh, something’s wrong with me. I’m actually normal and I’m responding to my environment in an actually healthy and wise way. Okay. Okay.
Okay. Well, let’s do that with long term relationships, okay?
Then like, what are the things that people think this isn’t normal or what are some common misconceptions they have about long term sexual relationships that you’re like, we need to, we need to just stop that. Stop.
Emily Nagoski: Yeah. Gosh, there’s, there’s, there’s so many things. I did an event with Heather Carina, who runs Scarlatine, um, and they talked to, like, 14 year olds who’ve never been in any kind of relationship, never mind a sexual relationship, and these children already have this idea in their head that when they get into a relationship that becomes long term, it’s going to be, like, hot and heavy, horny, can’t wait to do things,
uh, At the beginning, and that’s gradually going to fade over time, and either you just have to accept that, like, it’s never going to be a part of your life again, or you, like, invest time and energy and money to, like, spice things up and keep the spark alive.
And nothing about that narrative is factually correct.
Emily Nagoski: Uh, it can be true, and especially if you believe it, you can make it true.
Monica Packer: Hmm.
Emily Nagoski: But, what’s actually happening for the couples who sustain a sexual connection over the long term, instead of thinking about desire, think about pleasure. There’s this wonderful analogy I learned from a sex therapist in New Jersey named Christine Hyde.
She talks to her clients and says, imagine your best friend invites you to a party. You say yes because it’s your best friend and it’s a party! But as that date starts approaching, you’re going, There’s gonna be traffic on a Friday night. I’m gonna have to find childcare. Am I gonna want to put my party clothes on at the end of a long week?
But you said you’d go. So you trim your nose and ear hair. You put on the body glitter and you show up to the party. And then what happens? A lot of the time you have fun at the party. If you are having fun at the party, you are doing it right. The couples who sustain a strong sexual connection love to throw parties.
It’s like a hobby that they share. It’s the co creation of context that make it easy for their brains to get to an erotic, pleasurable place.
Monica Packer: Basically you’re saying they prioritize sex and they prioritize pleasure. Does that also mean they, like, make the space and time for it? Like, literally on the calendar? I’m sure that’s different for each
Emily Nagoski: Sometimes, literally on the calendar, scheduling is not for everyone. Some people have like a demand avoidance resistance. It’s actually called the ironic process where the more you insist you try, try, try to do something, the more your brain’s like, no, I’m not going to do it. So scheduling doesn’t work for everyone, but there’s three characteristics of these couples who sustain a strong sexual connection that lasts.
Uh, one, they are friends. They admire and like each other. I hope it’s not controversial that liking the person that you like touch your whole skin against is good.
Uh, so if the relationship has to be basically, you have to like each other.
Monica Packer: Hmm.
Emily Nagoski: Uh, two, they do prioritize sex. The trick with prioritizing sex means that you have to be willing to deprioritize something else.
What are you willing to not do in order to create the time and the energy to close the door on the rest of your life and just do this, let’s face it, pretty silly thing that we humans do what is it about sex that’s more? valuable as a way to spend your time than watching reruns of Parks and Recreation? That’s an actual
Monica Packer: Yes,
Emily Nagoski: The couples who sustain a strong sexual connection prioritize sex. They decide that it really contributes something important to their relationship, that they sustain this connection.
That doesn’t mean that sex never falls off the priority list, because life happens. But because they have decided that it matters, they are motivated to find their way back to each other. And then the third characteristic of couples who sustain these strong sexual connections is, this is the hard one, they recognize that they’ve been following somebody else’s rules for how they’re supposed to do a sexual connection, and they decide they’re not going to do that anymore.
They’re going to be their authentic sexual selves, they’re going to receive their partner as their authentic self, and they’re going to co create a sexual connection that is right for them specifically, without reference to what anybody else says their relationship is supposed to be like.
Monica Packer: I feel like a lot of us, uh, Don’t even think about that just how much maybe the movies we watch or the marriages that were modeled to us or even The way our friends are navigating their sexual relationships how that actually impacts the way we think it’s supposed to look like
Emily Nagoski: Yeah. You know, you were, we were talking about myths and the center, I called the desire imperative, this idea that like, if you don’t have spontaneous desire sex, then you don’t have anything worth having. Um, when actually what matters is pleasure. Do you like the sex you are having? Did you know that people believe you more when what you say rhymes? remember it better and they believe you
Monica Packer: I’m bad at that. I know you’re good at it. So yeah, let’s hear it
Emily Nagoski: Pleasure is the measure. Pleasure is the measure of sexual well being. It is not about how often you do it. It is not about how often you do it. Cause even I, still, my brain goes to the place of how long has it been since we did the thing?
And I start to beat myself up if it’s been too long. It’s been too long. It’s truly not about how often, it’s not about how many orgasms you have even, it’s whether or not you like the sex you are having. Wouldn’t it be better to have sex, uh, at a frequency that feels comparatively infrequent to you, whatever that is, and everyone involved really enjoys it?
Versus having sex at a frequency that feels very frequent to you, and at least one person involved doesn’t enjoy it.
Monica Packer: Okay.
Emily Nagoski: It’s really not about frequency. It’s about whether or not you like it. Pleasure is the measure. But the other myth I just, I just want to get rid of entirely is the idea that if you have to talk about it, there must be something wrong. Couples who sustain a strong sexual connection talk about sex all the time because it’s, it’s like a shared hobby. If you’re into community theater, you don’t just talk about it when you’re at rehearsal or, like, at the show. You talk about it in between. You talk about it on the drive to rehearsal.
You talk about it while you’re making dinner. If you’re really into, like, cooking, you don’t just talk about it while you’re eating the dinner. You talk about it when you’re making the grocery list and you talk about what went great with this recipe last time and what you want to change next time, right?
I use the language of, like, it’s a third thing. There’s you and your partner and you turn your shared gaze toward this shared project. So when people have kids, your kids are a third thing. You turn your joint gaze onto this project that you share together. It is a site of joint fascination. Um, your sex life deserves to be a third thing like that, where you talk about it all the time because it’s an important thing that you share. It’s an important part of your life.
Monica Packer: Oh my
Emily Nagoski: Couples who talk about it all the time have better sex.
Monica Packer: And it’s so funny that that’s, you know, part of your, your third point there. We think we shouldn’t be talking about it or like we shouldn’t have to, that’s probably more of the real thing. we shouldn’t have to, it should just be easy spontaneous. It should be natural.
Um, look, I’m busy. Aren’t you busy?
Monica Packer: Yeah.
Emily Nagoski: Almost nothing in my life happens that’s not in my calendar. So I’ve often heard people say, if my partner has to schedule it, they don’t want me enough.
Look, like, because we’re busy, If connecting with me erotically is so important to my partner that they block out time on their calendar for it, they’re like, I don’t care what else is going on, these two hours are for us.
Like, that is pretty frickin sexy.
Monica Packer: You know, and why don’t we just say it that way? I mean, that’s so, that’s not only a better reframe. It feels like a more honest reframe. It feels real. And, and that’s where, I mean, I think I want to talk about another myth too, that, that you’ve brought up in your book as well. But I mean, we’ve covered so many great ones, but I think the myth of it, there’s something wrong with us if our sexual connection, whether it’s connected to our sexual desire or. The frequency or even the level of pleasure, if it ebbs and flows, something is wrong with us.
Emily Nagoski: Right.
Monica Packer: So let’s talk about that.
Emily Nagoski: Yeah, of course it ebbs and flows, because our lives change so the mechanism in your brain that controls sexual response, uh, is called the dual control mechanism. Very briefly, it means you’ve got a sexual accelerator that notices sexy information in the environment and sends the turn on signal.
And you’ve got brakes that notice all the good reasons not to be turned on right now, all the potential threats in the environment. And our lives. Throw a lot of stuff at our brakes. Uh, the context is made of both your external circumstances and your internal state, so some of the things that hit the brakes are your external circumstances, like the amount of time you have available, the amount of, worry about money, the kids, just like your, all the life stuff that has nothing to do with sexuality itself.
And then there’s your internal state, which is the state of mind that you’re in. and there’s There’s only two ideas in the book that require two chapters to explain, and internal state is one of them. There’s a whole metaphor of the emotional floor plan. But basically, our lives are such that we spend a lot of time stressed out in a fear state of anxiety and worry, or in a rage state of frustration and irritation.
And those two states are a thousand miles away. from the states of mind where our brain can experience pleasure. So if you’re in that, like, so for example, when I was crying and falling asleep with my husband, uh, my brain was in the fear state. I was so worried. I was so stressed out from like, am I doing this right?
Am I doing this well enough? Is this working at my job, with my work, with the book?
Monica Packer: Hmm.
Emily Nagoski: But I would get skin to skin with my partner. And, you know, I wrote a whole book about stress management. I should have recognized it at the time. Uh, one of the best, most evidence based ways to complete the stress response cycle and get myself out of the fear space is connection.
So my body would come in contact with, like, my favorite person alive on Earth and go, Oh, I’m safe now. I can let this go. And that, my crying was my brain being like, ah, I can relax now,
can allow my body to release. I am safe enough now that I can calm down this stress response that I’ve been in the middle of for so long.
And, okay, so I get out of the stress space. Where am I now? Mmm, I’m so physically exhausted that I literally just need, like, sleep and a snack and probably a bath, right? And only then. Do I have the wherewithal to get myself into a brain state where I can actually experience pleasure? So there’s like at least three steps between me and a sexy state of mind.
Monica Packer: So for a woman who are listening to this and like, boy, do I relate to the, I just need to sleep. I a snack and I need to take a bath, but they’re on that train perpetually. And it sounds like you were for a long time
Emily Nagoski: Yeah.
Monica Packer: that what you just said can be both hopeful and not depressing, but also like, Oh crap. So
Emily Nagoski: Well, what mean it’s knowing what’s true thing. it’s a recognition of what’s actually going on in your brain. Why does it feel so hard? This is why it feels hard because it is. It feels hard because it’s, I know we all got taught that pleasure and sex is supposed to be easy and obvious and natural and spontaneous.
We got lied to for decades. And when I explain what’s actually true, you’re like, that sounds so much harder than I ever thought it was supposed to be.
Monica Packer: Hmm.
Emily Nagoski: But, the good news is that it actually works. Like, this is how you actually find your way to a sexy state of mind, is by figuring out how to get to a space where your brain can experience pleasure.
And hey, listen, when you get more practice at transitioning out of these pleasure adverse spaces, the fear space and the anger space, and also the panic grief space, which is where you experience isolation and feeling trapped and lonely, um, that’s where shame lives. When we practice transitioning out of those spaces into the pleasure favorable spaces, that means we are practicing transitioning out into the difficult spaces into the pleasurable spaces
and that is going to mean our lives are more pleasurable overall, not just that we have more and better sex, but that we are better able to savor all of the pleasures of our lives.
Monica Packer: It’s funny how so much of what you have to teach us doesn’t have to do with like anything mechanical.
Emily Nagoski: Shh, it’s, it’s just, I’m just to a better sex life. This isn’t about like making your life better. It’s not about changing the world. It’s just, it’s just, I mean, like I could go the like, here’s, you know, six tips for giving a great oral sex, whatever. It turns out that’s not actually what people exactly.
Monica Packer: And that to me is another point again, when you’re like, Oh, actually that’s really nice to hear. But then what do I do with this? Because it’s not just about getting better at technique. It’s actually so much bigger and so much more important than I ever realized.
And for the women who are kind of in that space, maybe in their, in the perpetual exhaustion state, let’s just call it burnout.
One read, read burnout. Okay. But if they’re in that perpetual state and they’re also hearing you. They believe you in many ways, like I am ready now. Okay. It means I need to take care of all the other states so I can move more of that sexy state of mind. What advice do you have for them? Where do they start and what can they expect on this, on this path?
Emily Nagoski: In the context of a long term relationship,
Monica Packer: Yes.
Emily Nagoski: get more help from your partner. Sure. If you are burnt out like that, get more help first from your partner because we’re assuming that there is a partner. Um, and if that partner would like you to be connecting sexually with them, uh, in a more profound way than you are currently, one of the most, like, sex positive things they can do for your relationship is listen to what you need in order not to be so stressed and overwhelmed.
And just, like, get that stuff off your plate. If it means hiring somebody to clean the house, like, figure out how to make that affordable. If it means that they spend, they are the one who does all the stuff in the morning because you just are a night owl, and your brain is not very functional in the morning, like, let them take over for multiple days a week to do the morning stuff.
Like, get the help you need. So that your body can be adequately rested. And let’s also normalize that there are times when it’s not going to be there. Like, for me, like, there just were times when it was not there that’s okay. Does it matter enough for you to put sex ahead of anything else that is currently taking up your time and energy?
What are you willing to not do? So that you have time and space for pleasure. And I would love for people to have conversations. Like if you do only one thing as a result of listening to this. Have a conversation with your partner. I really love questions like, what is it that I want when I want sex? Um, people will flippantly say orgasm, but actually it turns out it’s things like connection and shared pleasure and feeling or being wanted and having the freedom to just like escape into pleasure.
And what is it that I don’t want? When I don’t want sex. I don’t want to feel obliged to do something that I’m not into. I don’t want to feel the shame that I was taught I was supposed to feel about it. These like big things that people don’t want when they don’t want sex. Have that conversation just as a starting point with your partner.
So that you’re bypassing the like, but why won’t you have sex with me? The, so that no one is like blamed. No one is shamed. No one is like broken. Uh, there’s nothing wrong with. Each person, there’s nothing wrong with the relationship. You’re just trying to solve this puzzle.
Monica Packer: I always love learning from people who are curious to learn more and to be surprised by what they’re learning about, even if it’s something that it’s already a field that they’re really well known for and they, and they are really into and doing a good job.
And that’s what you’ve done with this book. And you start by sharing, like, you know, even in the introduction, you shared those three premises you shared about what, you know, these long lasting sexual connections have in
Emily Nagoski: that’s literally just the introduction. Here you Yes. Which I love that you did that, but also. I love that you were surprised so much. And so I’ve been curious about one or maybe two things that surprised you the most as you were researching and learning from people who have been doing this for quite some time, just in their own lives.
Yeah. Honestly, the, the biggest sort of like transformational moment for me wasn’t about the research. It was about stuff that happened in my personal life. Um, two weeks before the book was due. Um, A friend of mine died of cancer. Her name was Anna. She was a librarian. Uh, she was right around my age, mid forties.
Uh, and she and her wife got married just a few months after my husband and I got married. And they had already reached their till death do us part. And here I was writing this book about sex and long term relationships. And so what does long term even mean? And, like, I, I was writing sections about, like, disability and inter abled couples because I recognize that body changes happen especially over time.
But I was really confronted with the reality that we are not guaranteed extended time with the people we choose to spend our lives with. We are only promised change.
Monica Packer: Hmm.
Emily Nagoski: And it’s really How we navigate those changes together that characterizes the quality of our relationship. So the whole second half of the book shifted to be about Navigating change in a way where every day that you spend with your partner, even if it’s still a day when you don’t have sex, is a day that you turn toward each other with kindness and compassion and patience and, if at all possible, a sense of play.
Because we get today, and even if I spend it still, like, not having access to sexual pleasure today because my body just doesn’t have it. It’s a day when we can laugh about that and be kind and affectionate toward each other, regardless. Like, we are still each other’s best friends, even in a moment of conflict and struggle.
Does that make sense?
Monica Packer: absolutely. I think it changes so much about what sex is. It’s supposed to really be about, and then we we’ve talked so much about the myths of long term sexual relationships, but that to me is the truth. It’s, it’s about coming together. It’s looking to each other because you’re right. I mean, change is constant. Constant, even down to like the way our bodies look and I’m sure, you know, as we go through hormone shifts as, as, as women too, yes. Which I’m just starting and not
Emily Nagoski: delightful. not. It’s chaos. Yeah. So, here’s the thing. If, if you’re wondering, did writing come together do the same thing to your sex life that writing come as you are did? Yes, Yes, it absolutely did. Um, and I did it with perimenopause, which is
Monica Packer: a whole other.
Yep.
Emily Nagoski: and long COVID.
Monica Packer: Oh, I’m so
Emily Nagoski: And when I got to the end of writing of this book, I now had this like hundred thousand word tome of how to find my way back to the sexual connection that had been destroyed by writing this book.
Monica Packer: Yep.
Emily Nagoski: And even with perimenopause and long COVID, Things are better now than they have been in all our 13 years together because I, like, have a manual for I will never again not be able to find my way back
Monica Packer: Hmm.
Emily Nagoski: because, like, even, like, I want the book to help so many people. I believe that it can, but if it only ever helps me as much as it has helped me and my relationship, then it was absolutely worth the project, the three and a half years that it took me to write it.
Monica Packer: Hmm. And this all goes back to that first myth you brought up. You know, those 14 year olds who think that the beginning of a long term relationship is all fireworks and those fireworks fade, and then you have to try to find the spark for like the remaining how many decades or not.
That you have together, that’s not true either. It, it can get better, especially as you learn how to find your way back to each other and evolve together. The more you reject other people’s ideas about how you’re supposed to be doing this, and just turn toward, like, what do I like to do? What experiences feel pleasurable? What do I want to try with this person whom I trust? And because I trust this person, we can go to, all kinds of curious, interesting places that I’ve wanted to explore, or it is only occurring to me now to try.
Emily Nagoski: I didn’t even realize how much I was following somebody else’s rules about, like, what my body is supposed to look like and how it’s supposed to behave, and what sort of stimulation is supposed to be pleasurable to me. As long as everybody’s glad to be there and free to leave, truly, you can do anything that feels good.
Monica Packer: This is actually my, my final big question. And then we always end with like a practical takeaway. Why does this matter anyway? Like, if this is such a strange thing that we do as humans,
Emily Nagoski: Mm hmm.
Monica Packer: And it can be so, it’s such a rollercoaster ride, especially if you are trying to pursue a decades kind of relationship. Why does it matter?
Emily Nagoski: You know what? It doesn’t have to matter. There are couples for whom it does not matter. And a lot of couples at least go through phases. Where it does not matter. And that’s okay! Nothing bad happens to our bodies if we don’t have access to sex. There is no disease process associated. There’s no pain or tissue damage caused by not having sex.
And, sex is one, it is just one of many, but it is a powerful one of the ways that humans access deep connection with each other. Emotional connection, physical connection, spiritual connection. It is one of many. The ways that we can connect with the most important people these partners whom we’ve chosen to be in our lives, I mean, the whole last chapter is about ecstasy.
Uh, and it’s like an instruction manual on how to access a kind of erotic pleasure that makes the universe turn into rainbows. And that is not, like, no one is required to do any of the things in the book. This is all optional. But if, if you’re interested in trying the project of sharing erotic ecstasy, It is really good for us as individuals and in a relationship and for the world as a whole, if our brains know how to access that kind of expansive pleasure where the boundaries of yourself dissolve into your partner and the boundaries of you as a couple dissolve into the universe and you feel part of one giant self that is the entire universe.
And. People have talked to me about when they live with chronic pain, it is the moment they are free of pain and the limitations of their bodies. It is a way that people access the divine. Sex can be nothing at all in your life, and it can be just fun and a delight.
And it can be a profound and life changing experience that you share with. One of your favorite people on earth.
Monica Packer: Love that. So if they’ve liked what they’ve heard today, then they’re going to love your book, Come Together. I’ll just hold that up. Love the cover of this, by the way. Um, what?
Emily Nagoski: and art of creating lasting connections is because my husband went to art school
Monica Packer: Oh
Emily Nagoski: and he drew the illustrations in the book.
Monica Packer: Oh my gosh. Love that. Love that. Love that. Why did I miss that? Like, did I, I had to know how
Emily Nagoski: I mean, only places acknowledged is in like the copyright page and in the acknowledgments.
Monica Packer: Oh, okay. Well, that, that probably explains it, but good job. Good job, Richard. That’s amazing. Okay. Well, I love that you have that piece there. So, um, before we leave, I want them to know, like, obviously this is 1 percent of what’s in the book. What is one thing though, after listening to this conversation beyond getting the book, which we’ll make sure we link to in, in the show notes and all of that, what is one thing that they can do?
Like one way they can take action on what you’ve taught them today?
Emily Nagoski: Have a conversation or. If you can’t bring yourself to have a conversation with your certain special someone, have a conversation about the barriers to having the conversation. The two biggest challenges people face when they want to talk about these things, but they just, they just don’t know how. Um, they’re worried that they’re going to say something that their partner will judge.
And they’re worried they’re going to say something that their partner will take personally or will hurt their partner’s feelings. So have a conversation about that. These conversations are intended to be an invitation to greater closeness, right?
And it’s, it can be scary! So talk about, like, what it would take, like, how you could help each other have a conversation that’s honest about, like, building a stronger connection, uh, in a way that avoids the potential risk of, like, hurting each other’s feelings and how are you not going to respond with judgment in case your partner says something that surprises you.
Monica Packer: I love even having a conversation about the barriers. I mean, I never thought of that. Like, can we just talk about why we don’t talk about this?
Emily Nagoski: Yeah, why is this so hard?
Monica Packer: Okay. That’s a wonderful way for them to take action. Well, Emily, thank you so much for being on About Progress again. It was a joy to have you.
Emily Nagoski: Thank you so much. It was a delight to be here.
Monica Packer: Fantastic. Thank you. And I, I love your whole, um, what’s, how did you phrase it? Your Q& A section in the back? Like, but Emily, is that how you
Emily Nagoski: the, but Emily questions, but, but, but Emily, I just want my partner to have more sex with me. How do I get my partner to have more sex with me? But Emily, I just want my partner to stop hassling me for sex. How do I get my partner to stop hassling me for sex? But Emily, what if it really just is my partner?
My partner just is the problem. What if, what if I, but Emily, what if I tell my part, I talk to my partner, like you say, I should, I say what I want and they react with shock and horror. What then?
Monica Packer: Shock and horror. Oh, I hope that’s no one who is listening to this right now.
