It’s Never Too Late and Never Too Small || a conversation with Sharon McMahon on the late bloomers and small changers

Have you ever felt like you're running out of time to make an impact? This week you get to hear from our favorite government teacher, Sharon McMahon, while we explore how it's truly never too late to start making a difference. We dive deep into America's obsession with youth and meteoric success, shedding light on a more sustainable, incremental approach to achieving meaningful change.

We discuss how small, everyday actions can add up over time and how the fear of failure often holds us back from even trying. Sharon's candid anecdotes and valuable insights will leave you feeling empowered to take that next small step, no matter your age or stage of life. Tune in and discover how you, too, can cultivate the audacity to make impactful changes, embrace failure as a part of growth, and understand that real progress often blooms from the most unlikely of places.

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TRANSCRIPT

Monica Packer: Sharon McMahon. Welcome to About Progress.

Sharon McMahon: It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

Monica Packer: It's an honor to have you. I loved your book, The Small and the Mighty, and while I was reading it, I of course loved the theme, you know, the main theme, The Small and the Mighty, but I was really struck by another theme that I felt kept popping up, and the theme was it's never too late.

Sharon McMahon: Mm.

Monica Packer: So today I thought it would be great to speak to the potential late bloomers who are listening, on how it's never too late, it's never too small. And to start out, you know, since you wrote a U. S. based history book, I thought it'd be great to begin with our American obsession with the 30 under 30 list that we have

Sharon McMahon: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Monica Packer: And you may not know the specifics of why we're obsessed with this, but I was curious about your own thoughts on how we came to this obsession as Americans specifically, and like with this meteoric success at a young age, that whole thing.

And in what ways is it reflective of our history and in other ways, totally ignorant of it.

Sharon McMahon: Mm. I mean, America itself as a country represents the Forbes 30 under 30 list. Look at what we've accomplished in such a short period of time. You know what I mean? Like that, that, that has been America out of the gate. We were out to prove ourselves the second we declared our independence. We're so, and we, this idea of like, we're such a young country and look at where we are with number one in the world and all these, you know, incredible metrics. That American obsession with youth, productivity, efficiency, achievement, has enabled us to do so many things. We're a very action oriented country and that is both a blessing and a curse, of course. Like all, all things have a, you know, two sides of every coin. But that's not unique to just Americans.

America itself is that way. And then I think some of this is evolutionary biology in that people who are young and virile and beautiful and whatever, they just appear to be very useful from a reproduction standpoint, you know, like that is somebody that looks good to me. I don't think that's necessarily American.

I think that's human. But you know, there's more to it too, but I think there's this sort of like combination of, of factors that you're more valuable when you're young and beautiful or when you are you know, young and strong. And I don't know that we have ever really moved past that.

Monica Packer: Which is a bummer.

Sharon McMahon: I know.

Monica Packer: There's so much, there's so much we're capable of at any age. And I want to talk about your own path about this. You know how you are reflective, I think, of it not having to be just us like super young, meteoric success kind of people overnight. You know, I, like you, I wasn't a history teacher. I taught middle school English and history and you were a public high school government and law teacher. But for how many years?

Sharon McMahon: Twelve.

Monica Packer: Twelve. Okay.

Sharon McMahon: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Monica Packer: Then you began your Instagram feed, Sharon Says So, in 2020. And are you comfortable sharing how old you were when you started and how old you are now?

Sharon McMahon: I am 29 and I was 29 when I started. So I have been 29 for at least like 15 years now.

Monica Packer: Okay. All right. So doing the math, like late forties, right? And, and the reason I bring this up is not, no 29 forever.

Sharon McMahon: Mm hmm. Mm.

Monica Packer: I bring this up is, is not because the age thing matters so much. Yeah. As much as it does our own fear that we haven't made it because we're not a success at 30 and that, you know, it doesn't happen overnight.

Then that means we will never get there. So I wanted to ask you about your own life. And when you look back now, how can you see that what you worked on and what you lived through, the small things paved the way for you to be where you are right now, at this point of your life, which by the way, is still very young and there's still a long life ahead.

Sharon McMahon: Mm hmm. That's true. That's true. Yeah, I mean, I hear from people all of the time that they're going back to school at, you know, age 54, or I, you know, I, I am going to run for city council and I'm, you know, 53 years old, or I'm 42 years old, or, you know, there's, there's, I hear, I hear from people all the time that they've just decided I'm going to have the audacity to, to try.

I'm going to have the audacity to overcome these sort of societal expectations that you are only valuable if you are young and, and beautiful and an overnight success. So I hear what you're saying that there's, that this is a widespread sentiment that people have, and I do think that things are starting to change, especially for women who are like, listen, I'm not interested in your quote unquote standards. I'm going to do what I want. But I do think it is also good for us to remember that even if we are, you know, 40 years old, or 50 years old or 60 years old, that we have not spent our previous years, our prior years, we've not wasted our youth. on not being an overnight success. That all of those life experiences, all that education, all of those trials you've lived through, those are all tremendously useful and instructive into who and what you will become in the future.

You know, Oprah is in her 70s now, and it's true that she didn't just get started yesterday, but nevertheless nobody would look at Oprah and be like, she's so washed up. What does she have to offer? In fact, Oprah is now drawing on, you know, like five decades worth of experience. Maybe she has even more to offer than she did when she was, you know, hosting a show in her 30s. So it helps me to remember, and I hear from other people that it helps them to remember that the stuff you did previously is not wasted.

Even if you went and got a law degree and you're like, I hate the practice of law, that experience is not wasted, you will use that maybe in an unexpected way, maybe in a way that you weren't anticipating. I certainly never anticipated using my education in the way that I'm using it now. And in many ways the good news is you don't know what's ahead. Right? It

actually is not good for humans to be able to predict the future. Every single time travel movie has gone wrong.

Right? Like it's never worked out.

It's good for humans to not know what's coming down the, coming down the pike. But I do think it helps us to know that it's not going to be wasted.

Monica Packer: Can you think of specific things about your life that you're like, oh, who knew that that would help me now? And it totally is, like I didn't see that when I was doing it, but I see it now.

Sharon McMahon: I learned a lot of skills in the classroom that I'm still using. You just wouldn't necessarily know that it's being used on you, right? You know, every teacher, when they first start is bad at it. They come home their first few days of teaching and they're like, I don't know what I am. That is terrible. I don't like, I-

Monica Packer: I don't want to go back.

Sharon McMahon: I'm not going back. I'm exhausted. Nothing productive happened today. I have no idea what I'm doing. That's how every teacher begins. And over time you develop more and more skills that make you better at what you're doing. And so yes. I absolutely use the skills that I learned in the classroom today. I also use my entrepreneurship skills. I've owned multiple businesses and, you know, built and sold things and I use those skills today too. I, I could have never ever thought that I would be the CEO of an education company with my name on it. That was never on my, like, list of, like, someday maybe I'd like to do X.

I can tell you that I'm glad that I am, and I don't think that any of my previous experience was wasted, because if nothing else, let's say you make a choice and you believe later on that this is the wrong decision, I've made the wrong choice. Let's say that's your belief, making that wrong choice. What you believe is the wrong choice, actually is tremendously instructive. Making that wrong choice actually teaches you far more than sitting and analyzing every possible choice times infinity and then never actually taking action.

There's, there's a lot of very successful people. I've been interviewed by all the Forbes 30 under 30 lists and one common theme that I've noticed when people are asked, like, what are your secrets to success? Or what advice would you have for somebody starting out? They almost always say something along the lines of fail faster. And that means making a choice and understanding that it was the wrong choice, but, but closing that door of like, we screwed that up. Or we discover we don't want to make that product, or I discover that that field is not for me. That is experience that you can't buy.

It's experience that you can't buy, and to me that helps me sort of like move through the world with a little bit more confidence. That failing is actually important in humans development and important in business.

Monica Packer: Well, I think, you know, you said this in your book in another way, and I had to write it down because of course my podcast is called About Progress. And you said progress comes at the price of discomfort. I think with that comes the failure part of the discomfort and, and being willing to accept that's part of the path to growing and making things happen in your life.

You're going to mess up. So I told you our community is made up of Recovering Perfectionists, and that means we're just kind of convinced still, deep down inside, that change can only come with big, sweeping actions. So while we're actively fighting against that, it still creeps up, it still pops up inside.

So I was wondering, from both your life and from learning and teaching history, what can you tell us of the might of the small?

Sharon McMahon: I love that. You know, almost all of the important change that has happened sort of in the grand sweep of history has come incrementally. The power of incremental change is undeniable. We think that we want grand sweeping revolutionary change. We think we want the, you know, dear King George, we are getting rid of you and we're going to become our own country, and goodbye.

We think we want, we want revolution. When in reality, revolutions certainly do create change, but they are all, they also come with a tremendous amount of risk and death and hardship and poverty and, you know, all kinds of very undesirable outcomes when it comes to revolution, not to, not to mention they create a power vacuum and you know, the American revolution worked out, but most revolutions don't.

So this idea that like we need to create revolutionary change, there's no sense that what you will get is better.

What if you get, what if you have a revolution and then the person who takes power is like a weird billionaire who on a spaceship? You know what I mean? Like, what if that is who takes power?

What if it is worse? So most important lasting change comes incrementally. Suffrage was the product of 70 years plus of hard work. Civil rights were the product of hundreds of years of hard work. Now, that's not to say that that's how it always should be. That's not to say that injustice, you know, should like, sometimes we have to be okay with correcting injustice, and that should take 200 years. That's not to say that that's how that we should be settling for accepting unjust situations. But it's an example of how most important lasting change does not come on the backs of revolution. It comes with incremental progress, the result of long years of hard work. So, for me, it helps me to remember something that somebody said at the funeral of a person in my book, a character in my book.

The person in the book did not see her ultimate goal through before she dies. And one of the things they mention at her funeral is something to the effect of no work for liberty is lost. It becomes part of the fabric of the nation, and this speaks to this idea that all of the things that came before us will be used. That no work for liberty, either for ourselves or for the country or for our communities, that even if we ultimately are not the person who takes the ball and gets across the finish line with it, that our labors are not in vain. They change who we are. They change who the country is. That our work is not lost even if we do not personally score the touchdown. And that helps, that helps me when I am feeling discouraged about you know, lack of forward progress on something, that my work is not going to be lost. That it hopefully changes us for the better.

Monica Packer: I want to turn more to your book. I love the examples you just shared that are also in your book. But you know, I found it so powerful because of learning about these people who I had never heard of, even as a history teacher, which maybe speaks more to me as a history teacher. But they have real impact on my life today, like today.

They have impacted my life. So I was wondering if we could go into one or two examples from your book specifically, maybe of a late bloomer or of another like small changer who both either made big changes in their lives and in others.

Sharon McMahon: Yeah, I'd love to. So one of the first people that sort of comes to mind is a man named Julius Rosenwald, who starts out life as a middle class man and has, you know, a middle class career selling suits. And by virtue of luck and proximity, he becomes fantastically wealthy. And I'll let people read the book to figure out how that happens.

But when he turns 50 is when he decides that he is going to do something truly impactful with the fortune that he comes by via luck and proximity and he sets out to have this sort of like giveaway bonanza.

Where he is, he gives away the equivalent of, modern day equivalent of about six hundred thousand dollars You know I'm gonna give you some of this money and you some of this money and this person's gonna get a grant and you know he loved to donate to things like YMCA's and you know places that helped the homeless so he made all of these bequests at age 50 and he could have stopped there and people would have been like that was really cool. Good for you. Thanks for you know, thanks for your, thanks for your donation but he realized after going through that process at age 50, that time is short and there is much good to be done in the world. And so he begins to set out by giving away as much of his fortune as possible and even gives instructions for like, after I'm dead, y'all better give the rest of this money away. Don't try to put it in any kind of trust and be like the foundation for blah, blah, blah. And like this perpetual endowment where you live off of the, you know, proceeds of the investments. He didn't want that. He did not want his money tied up in safety deposit boxes. Not when there were so many people whose lives needed to be improved today. And I just love this idea, first of all, that he used his money for good, but secondly that he just decided one day when he was 50 years old that I'm going to do what I can. And what he could do was a lot more than what somebody with fewer financial resources could do, but by the time he he gives away the modern money equivalent of over a billion dollars. Over a billion dollars and but yet most people couldn't tell you who he was. Would not have been able to pick him out of a lineup. There aren't a lot of statues with his, you know, face on it. He resisted putting his name on things. There was a museum that he was a benefactor of that tried to name the museum after him, and he actually fought them for two years.

Get my name off your museum. He didn't want to, to go down in history as the person who like donated that wing of the museum. He he wanted his money to go to people who needed it. And if that meant he faded into obscurity when he died, then so be it. His motivation was not to leave this legacy of beautiful, shiny hospital wings. It was to repair the world to the extent that he was able during his lifetime. So I love the idea that he just decided when he was 50, That's what I'm gonna do. He just set out to do it.

There's another, there's another story in the book, though, that I really like, which starts out as somebody who's a young woman, but she continues her important work throughout her entire life. And in fact, some of her most impactful work happens later in her life. She starts out as a, as a 16 year old teacher in post Civil War Virginia.

And, you know, just starts teaching this tiny handful of kids who are coming to school at a very dilapidated school building and she has to actually convince all of the parents in the community to send their kids to school because they're very, hesitant to trust that a teacher has their child's best interest at heart and they feel like they just African Americans were just freed after the Civil War and we want our children to have the same education as white students and what you're providing is not that. And she had to work to earn their trust. But ultimately some of the biggest impact she has comes, after decades and decades and decades of work. There are people now who still remember her. She worked until the 1940s. And there are people alive today who remember her as their teacher, who have given interviews about the impact that she had on their lives directly. People who she actually took in as a teacher she took in dozens of children over the years as a teacher, who say today that I would not be here without her. And all you have to do is watch It's a Wonderful Life, right? And you can understand how like one person missing from the story changes everything. The tens of thousands of people, if not more, that she ultimately impacted because she refused to give up. I just, I love knowing that she didn't need to have a fortune or a famous name to impact the course of history.

Monica Packer:  It's so wonderful to be inspired by these people. And I feel like I can hold that inspiration in one hand, but I can also hold a little bit of maybe not the overwhelm, but the fear, I guess, of not getting there because I can believe that, wow, everything I do matters. And it just may take a long time, but knowing that, and then doing it kind of as another thing.

So, what would you say to the people who worry they will never get there? In quotes. And also how that "there" may not be on the front pages of any newspapers or in the history books, but still matter.

Sharon McMahon: The first thing to realize is that you will never feel like you have arrived. That's an important thing to give up. If that's something that you're chasing, I'm like, but I still don't feel like what I have done matters. Neither did any of these people. Neither do I. I have, you know, raised 11. 4 million dollars to give away.

I have millions of followers. I have a number one New York Times best selling book. You know, like, I'm not here to give myself accolades. I'm saying I just have achieved some things, and I still don't feel like I have arrived. Whatever your definition of arrived is, right? And I, I truly don't think that most people feel like they have arrived. They do not look around themselves, around their circumstances, and feel like, I did it.

Monica Packer: Done!

Sharon McMahon: I did it.

I don't think they do. Which is one reason why presidents insist on running for second terms almost always. Even as the president of the free world, air quotes, they still don't feel that they have arrived after four years.

They still feel like there is more to do.

Monica Packer: mm hmm, mm hmm,

Sharon McMahon: The first thing is realize, if you are waiting to feel like I really did great work throughout my lifetime, I arrived, you're going to keep on waiting. That feeling is not going to come. So that can't be the goal. The goal cannot be chasing that feeling. It's twisting at windmills, an exercise in futility if that's what you're chasing. The second thing is that nearly there are nearly no examples of people who made impactful change throughout history who woke up each day with the tremendous feeling of hope and that what they were doing was really moving the needle. I am just out here swinging for the fences and nailing it every day. That almost never happened. Even the people who wrote the United States Constitution. turned to each other and said, I hope it works. They legitimately did not know the answer.

We hoped for better things. But we did not know if the country would fall into anarchy and despotism. They truly did not feel to themselves in that moment like, we've made it, look at what we have accomplished and achieved. They had doubts.

And that is the, that's a normal human experience. The person who has no doubts is either lying or like a psychopath. Right? That's not a normal psychological state to be in. They're either lying to your face or they don't have normal emotions. So the people in history who really did move the needle did not wait for a feeling of hope or a sign that what they were doing was changing the course of history. They understood that hope was a choice. That hope was a choice they were making every day. That sometimes hope was a choice they were making every minute.

Monica Packer: mm hmm,

Sharon McMahon: And that without hope, without a positive vision for the future, that nothing meaningful can happen. The hope is the fertile soil from which good things grow, right?

We can't grow beautiful gardens in a, in an environment of cynicism.

If our, if our- The posture of our mind is one that is cynical, like nothing I do matters screw all this stuff. Nobody cares It's all corrupt blah blah blah If that is the lens through which we are viewing the world that is not a place where beautiful things grow, that is accepting the status quo of the world as it is that nothing I do matters, nothing can change. What you're saying is, then everything should remain exactly as it is. And most of us don't want that. Most of us don't want the world to remain exactly as it is. It's full of hardship and injustice and sorrow. We want the world to be better.

We want to progress. We want the world to progress. So maintaining hope is not waiting for a feeling of hopefulness. It is not waiting for signs that everything's going your way. It is not waiting for a feeling of arrival. It is a choice that we make each day, that what we do matters. So, that is what our forebears have done. That is the posture that I choose to adopt, and it's one that I find far more useful than waiting for the external validation of signs and symbols that what you're doing matters. That is not, that is not useful in my opinion. Mm

Monica Packer: I think related to that, I can't leave this interview without asking kind of a meaty question and it bears a little bit of context. So let's just stick with me for a moment cause I just need a little airtime to set it up. Cause you write in your book that the best Americans were not always famous.

And I love today hearing about the ones that were indeed not famous. We didn't know even their names, let alone the influence they've had in our very lives today. We also got to hear about your life too. And the things that you did for a very long time with nobody giving you that external validation for years, like good job, gold star.

Like you made it through that really hard class period, gold star, you landed a great client had a good photo shoot, gold star. You didn't get that for so long. But right now, like in this moment, you are arguably famous, you're a big deal and you're doing big things and in big ways.

And I feel like most people who've been in your community, like me from like day one, share in that excitement. It's like parasocial relationship where we're like, Sharon, you're doing it. You're doing it, but I'm sure maybe some people it's contradictory to them, you're saying the small things I do matter, but you're a big deal.

But when I think about that, I go back to your book, because I don't think that's contradictory. And I think about the sheer variety that you feature in it. You know, there were the loud mouths in that book, people who could not shut up, there were the real quiet and pious people who barely spoke at all.

These people differ in age and they differ in race and gender and politics, religion and methods and strengths. And so for me, that variety shows that there's space for all . The big and the small and how they both matter. And it's not a competition. We don't need to be like, you're too big. Goodbye. Or you're too small. Goodbye. It's, all of it matters.

So this is the question. Okay. So given the many ways that you've lived this all out in your life, that both kind of part that I was getting at, how can we as women specifically, cause that's who listens to my show, make space for both in their lives to have that desire for big things, big change to, to live in a big way, to be bold that way, but also to be okay with it happening so small or

seemingly anonymously. So how can we make space for both and how can we also take up the space we need to in the walls of our own homes or the walls of Congress? Yeah.

Sharon McMahon: It's a great question and I would, I would tell you this, that it starts with having the audacity to let other people watch you fail. Having the audacity to do something that maybe is bold, but it feels terrifying because you know that it might not work out. And for so many of us, we're not necessarily afraid of failure. We're afraid of other people watching us fail, right? If you trip over, you know, your cat at home and you bump your knee on the coffee table, it might hurt.

But are you, do you feel embarrassment about that? Not really. Not really. But if you trip over something in public and you fall on your face in public, that's far worse, right? Like the people watching you fall is far worse than actually just falling. So I would argue that we're not so much afraid of failure as we, as we fear the judgment of others if, if we do fail. And that can be tremendously debilitating. Thank you. And for some of us the audacity to try begins with the audacity to do something like apply for a job, like fill out an application, or, you know, decide to go back to school having the audacity to try something new. For some of us it means the audacity to send in a book proposal, or having the audacity to turn your camera on and start making some, you know instagram videos. For some people, it means having the audacity to run for Congress, or the presidency, or whatever it is that they feel like, Ah, I just really want to try it. It all requires much of the same chutzpah. It requires the audacity to let other people watch you fail. And, as you mentioned before, history favors the doers and not the critics.

And when you have the audacity to try, that is almost always when you land on the right side of history. It's not the people who are at home, laughing at the fact that you didn't get into your dream college, or laughing at you when you trip on the steps in public. Those are not the people that history smiles kindly upon. So whatever it is that you are wanting to do or try, whether that is something small or something of epic proportions, it all requires the same skill. Having the audacity to try. And the good news is, it's a skill you can practice. And you can get better at it. And you can start small and get bigger. And your capacity over time will grow and change. It helps me to remember that almost nobody started out at level 10 skill of doing whatever it is. In fact, that would be tremendously dissatisfying as a human. If everything was so easy, there was nothing challenging. There was no journey to learning. If everything was super easy for you, that's actually like kind of a not very fun world to live in. It's fun to learn new things and to challenge yourself. So I like to remember that Even if you don't feel like you can do that thing today, that doesn't mean that your capacity won't increase in the future as you sort of flex those muscles, flex your audacity muscles. Why not have the audacity of a mediocre white man? That's the question I ask myself.

There's a lot of Chads out there who have the audacity. Might as well be you.

Monica Packer: I was going to say we should all needle point that on something and just put it somewhere. We see so

Sharon McMahon: I should put on my shelf. Have the audacity of a mediocre white man cause that's who has done most of the stuff in the country. And we all know that we could probably do just as good if not better.

Monica Packer: I think there's no better note to end on. I do want to direct people to your book, The Small and the Mighty, and we'll also link to your podcast, Instagram account. Is there anything else that they should look for with you?

Sharon McMahon: They can follow my newsletter at thepreamble.com

Monica Packer: I have so enjoyed that, by the way. It's so remarkable to me how much time is poured into that. It's really, really well done. We always end with one final question, and it kind of relates to your book funnily enough. And it's always because we learn so much, but we want to condense it to one small way that people can take action.

So what would that be? What is one small thing they can do to take action on what they learned today?

Sharon McMahon: The next needed thing. The next needed thing. You don't need to create a spreadsheet of all available things to do and then weigh them relative to each other. You can just see one thing and do that and tomorrow do something else. And don't let the analysis paralysis stop you from becoming one of the doers of history instead of one of the critics.

Monica Packer: Well, that's another needle point. Sharon, this whole interview is full of them. Thank you so much for taking the time to be on about progress today.

Sharon McMahon: I appreciate you.

Thanks so much.

Monica Packer: gosh, that really was just.

 Sharon McMahon. Welcome to About Progress.

Sharon McMahon: Oh no, you disappeared.

Monica Packer: You did, you too. I don't know what

Sharon McMahon: The screen went black. It said, Sharon McMahon, welcome to, and then the screen went black.

Monica Packer: Oh, that's hilarious. At least you weren't running a meditation

Sharon McMahon: That's

Monica Packer: lots of people

Sharon McMahon: that's right. at least I wasn't in the middle of meditating. Where I'm like, I it was a little bit like I opened one eye where I was like, what is going on? Yeah.

Monica Packer: We're going to keep going then. We'll, we'll do that. Yeah. We'll start over.

Sharon McMahon: Mm hmm.

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