Is your marriage ready for more? More intimacy, connection, and collaboration?
Then, it’s time for some changes. It’s time to move towards more partnership.
“Partnership?”
This is where both spouses have their needs and desires be equally heard. This is where BOTH spouses’ contributions can be better valued and supported.
(Psst: this helps the whole family thrive!)
Yes, we can agree that this kind of partnership is something we want more of in our marriages.
But, getting there is complicated. It takes time, and it takes expertise . . .
That’s why we are lucky to have two world-renowned relationship experts on the show this week!
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife and Dr. Julie Hanks (two of our top-favorite guests!) are joining forces to share what a partnership model looks like, why it’s essential to having deeply successful marriages and families, and HOW couples can move past the obstacles getting in the way of being equally valued.
This won’t be a light-hearted episode for you to listen to.
But it will be a life-changing one.
It’s time for MORE in your marriage! If you’re ready for that, listen in to learn how.
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TRANSCRIPT
Monica Packer: Please forgive me for this, but marriage is what brings us together today. I had to do it, right? All Princess Bride references aside, I just want to start by being very transparent. Marriage is hard. Even in the best of matches, it is. Even with the most loving of partners, marriage stretches us in ways that are difficult, but also in ways that are necessary.
Because that stretching makes us better humans, unless we avoid it. It is scary to face the hard parts of our marriages and to stretch those parts. Even if we’re currently unhappy with the way we are being seen, honored, and valued within the most important relationship of our lives. One of the most common struggles I see women facing within their marriages is This can be summed up as a problematic dynamic that exists in couples all over the world.
The power dynamic. This is where one person tends to hold more power than the other. This power dynamic in marriage is very modeled to us. It’s taught to us, and it can even feel more natural to us when we start our marriages. But the power dynamic has proven to lead to more suffering on all sides of a marriage.
So what can we do? What would happen if we stretch this dynamic by shifting it? And what if marriages were grounded in partnership instead of being based in power? My guests today are both experts on relationships, including what to do about this power dynamic problem. They are also our two most popular guests on the show, and I am so thrilled that this is their first appearance together ever.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson Fyfe is a world renowned marriage and sex psychotherapist and coach specializing in LDS women and marriages. Her work has changed my life. Dr. Julie Hanks is also a world renowned relationship psychotherapist, and she focuses on women’s dreams, families, and personalized faiths. And her work has changed my life.
Together, they are here to help you unwind the complicated narratives and beliefs that go into marriages, struggling with power dynamics. They also share why the partnership model is better for the whole family and how you can work towards it starting today. If you’re ready for more in your marriage, more intimacy, more connection, and more collaboration, this is the kind of stretching that will help you get there.
Quick note before we begin, while this episode centers more on marriage, it also applies to any relationship in your life where you see the need to shift to partnership over power. Dr. Jennifer Finlayson Fyfe and Dr. Julie Hanks, thank you so much for being on About Progress. You’ve both been on the show multiple times and we’ve all benefited from your incredible work.
And just to start this whole interview, thank you. Thank you for the work that you both do and for being here together. It’s such an honor. Let’s talk about the topic. We see this come up a lot. And the women, all of us serve together at this power dynamic that we have within partnerships. And we’re going to talk specifically about marriages today.
And we all have dynamics in marriages, but there tends to be one more about power. And I’ve learned so much about this topic from both of you, how to increase partnership and in your marriage. And that’s our topic today, but we can’t talk about that first without talking about that power dynamic. Dr.
Julie Hanks, let’s start with you and just talking about. What does this power dynamic typically look like in your clients and where might it come from?
Dr. Julie Hanks: There’s a lot of variety, but there is a pattern that most, if not all of us have inherited, where the man is the head of the household. Whether we actually consciously believe that or not, we’ve inherited this assumption or, you know, that the man is somehow in charge.
And that can be very subtle. It can look like prioritizing his career over hers or his education over hers or his leisure time over hers or his opinions. So it can be sometimes overt, but sometimes really subtle. And it comes from this, the way that we Organize in our society in general toward patriarchy and patriarchy.
That word is a trigger for some people. It’s not talking about men. It’s talking about a system of organization where men are privileged above women and men are In charge. So it’s a system. It’s not the men. So this is, I love men. Sometimes I’m accused of like, not liking men. I love men and patriarchy hurts men and women.
And it really impacts the marriages that I’ve seen in my practice.
Monica Packer: We hear that term patriarchy and a lot of us can have strong reactions to it either way, like big reactions to it, but there’s still. An imbalance when you’re trying to move outside of, you know, that patriarchal power kind of dynamic in a marriage.
And I think one of the things that helps us start is to just look at the pain that it’s causing for everyone. And Jennifer, you did an interview with me years ago and I’ve never forgotten it, how you talked about. How women are more developed in ways that men are not because of this dynamic and vice versa.
So talk a little bit more about that.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: First of all, society’s evolved a lot because when you’re in a system where you literally can’t own property, you can’t vote, you know, you, you have no rights. You can’t get divorced. I mean, you think about some of the places where legally women have been. We’re in a much, much better situation legally or in terms of the structures of society.
But emotionally, as Julie was saying, these things are often still inherited and we learn a way of thinking. If you grew up watching Cinderella, you learn a way of thinking that the woman kind of slides underneath the man. And the man learns a way of thinking about who he’s supposed to be. And when we’re immature in our development, we naturally create hierarchies.
It’s a way of. Trying to earn a sense of self through the other person. So you can get inducted into that narrative of growing up and depending on somebody because it lowers your anxiety. It’s this idea that if I find someone who will love me and, and accept me and care for me and provide a life for me.
Well, that’s all, you know, and think I’m wonderful. What’s the downside? Like, I want that. You know, why, why, and for the, the masculine version of it or the male version is I want to be the strong one. I want to be the one that’s providing. I want her to. Adore me and be grateful for the things that I offer to her life.
The reason it appeals is it’s a way of earning a sense of self through the other person. So it’s where most people start, and it’s why people buy in emotionally into hierarchy. The thing is, you can also buy in that the husband’s in charge, and a lot of smart women figure out how to still get on top in that system, so just to kind of give it some, you can sort of be like, well, I’m the needy dependent one, therefore you owe me and you’re doing a crap job of it.
And you know, and so you can, you can find ways to be the dominant person or to get the marriage to revolve around you. But it’s costly if you stay locked in it or if you think it’s the ideal because it interferes It’s almost unequivocally with desire, which is kind of the main focus of my work. But it interferes with development because when your sense of self is walking around outside of you, you have a hard time liking that person.
You have a hard time genuinely caring for them. You’re relating to them more as somebody else. Who manages how you feel about you and it also keeps you from developing other aspects of you, who you are, your capacity, either to provide for yourself or to, you know, to handle yourself in the world or your ability to be vulnerable and open and knowable.
You know, when you ask men to always be strong, there’s no room for them. To be insecure, uncertain. And so they have to do a lot of masking to manage their sense of self often. So
Monica Packer: there’s a lot of gaps here, a lot of gaps within like a day to day structure of a marriage, you know, who does what, but also a huge gap in terms of intimacy, being together, really truly together, as well as on an individual basis of lacking that development.
And we want more mature marriages. So we want more developed. People, we want more developed families as you’re describing the costs that are paid. I feel like the flip side of that are also the benefits that can come with a partnership marriage. And so Dr. Hanks, why should someone even want more partnership in their marriage?
Especially if like at the level they’re at right now, it seems to be working fine.
Dr. Julie Hanks: I think what Jennifer said is, is beautiful about development. So if, if the goal in life is growth, Eventually you’re going to get to a point where hierarchy in your marriage, it, it stops growth and healthy development is about integration.
So it’s about men integrating their vulnerability, their sensitivity, their emotional connection, and women integrating strength and ambition. And, having all of that in each person is, is the goal of healthy. Of a healthy adult. And so that’s the benefit is that you get to become a full, uh, full grown adult with a variety of ways of being in the world and responding that aren’t limited to just playing a role.
You get to be authentically who you are and express that in a variety of ways. And then I think a part of this too, is then you can model it for your children. You can model what equality looks like, what respect looks like, what, what partnership instead of hierarchy looks like, where it’s both people are prioritized, both of their needs are.
And, you know, And you can model that. And that’s what changes it for the entire culture is adults, parents modeling that, you know, a new way of being for their children.
Monica Packer: So partnership, if I’m hearing you, right, it doesn’t mean we’re going into full role reversals. It’s not like we’re just going to do a switcheroo or also downplay the different strengths that both people can bring because of their unique.
Perspectives of being a woman and being a man. It’s more about prioritizing needs on an equal level. Right.
Dr. Julie Hanks: Right. And yeah, it’s also not about dividing up tasks, 50, 50. That’s what people often, they misunderstand partnership. So I always say it’s not who does what. It’s who decides who does what and whose work is valued and whose time is valued.
So you can have a partnership family that looks very traditional in terms of roles, but both people are equally valued, have access to resources, have access to decision making power, to pleasure, to, you know, all of that. So it’s not just about who does what it’s, it’s a structural shift.
Monica Packer: In power. That’s huge.
I think that’s going to shift a lot in terms of what women think about partnership and how it can play out. Jennifer, what about you? How would you define partnership?
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah, I love what Julie was saying there. Cause I, it it’s exactly where a lot of my clients go, which is you should be loading the dishwasher half the time, that kind of thing.
And I can understand why people might start there. And oftentimes you do have to kind of address some of these more mundane things. But I like the idea of it’s about who gets to decide. And a word I use a lot with clients is about collaboration. If a couple that can collaborate is, um, is able to address the challenges in their lives, whether it’s a challenge with the child, how they provide for the family, how they raise their children, how they have a good sexual partnership.
And that both. Both person’s perspectives and desires are valued in that conversation and that you bring the best from each person in that to create something stronger and better. And So it allows you to bring your strengths to the conversation, to address your liabilities in that conversation, but you’re trying to create something synergistic, ultimately, through how you each participate, and you can’t do it through devaluing one’s systematically in the, in the conversation.
Monica Packer: You know, I’m thinking back when we, before we first had kids, I remember thinking, Oh, Brad and I are going to split all the duties. He’s going to get up at night as. Just as often as I am. And I was breastfeeding and I learned pretty quickly, that wasn’t going to work out. And, and I think that’s because I was at a different stage of development within my own maturity, my own sense of self, as going for more of the surface ways of being able to be a bean counter within the tasks in our home, instead of like you just described and Dr.
Hanks too, about meeting of minds and of strengths and collaborating in this way, that Everyone gets valued. And that’s, I mean, that’s, that’s the goal here. Uh, I want to talk more about how, for those who are at that place that I was at before we first had kids, but first let’s talk about obstacles. We’ve kind of covered a little bit of it being just tradition or mindset.
It could also be. People within a partnership disagreeing about what that looks like. Jennifer, let’s start with you actually in this one. Uh, what do you see as obstacles with your clients a lot that are getting in the way of this meeting of minds and this collaboration that we’ve been discussing?
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Well, one is the lack of courage.
And I mean, I know it sounds a little bit strange, but there’s often an upside to your non collaborative position that’s scary to So I work with people, it’s easier to resent. Your devalued position than to actually level up and claim a position of self valuing and stay in a conversation, not aggressively, but not as a doormat either, and actually work out a different arrangement because that means more exposure of yourself, more exposure of your desires, more willingness to tolerate the inherent conflict more.
You know, it’s easier to resent your spouse for not valuing you than to value yourself enough to stand up for something that needs to be addressed. So I think a real obstacle is shifting in your own view of yourself. I think an obstacle is staying steady enough to keep your eye on the prize.
Monica Packer: Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Rather than, you know, like, you know, a couple I’m working with where they’ve had kind of chronic desire challenges and he never feels desired. And so sometimes he’ll come in in this supposedly wanting a better sexual relationship, but then doing something that kind of digs at her as a way of managing.
His sense of self so he doesn’t keep his eye on the what’s the goal is to create something good for both of us Where she gets vulnerable is like she can now use that to say well You’re not very desirable and and it’s there’s some truth in it, but she can also use it to kind of push him down Rather than looking towards what are we trying to create and that’s so comfortable in the beginning That it’s easy to indulge it, but undermine the ultimate growth of the partnership and create something that’s freer and happier for both people.
Monica Packer: That one up, one down positions that you’ve talked about on the show in the past too. I, I feel like martyrdom as women tends to be like this weird upside. Like it’s almost like a twisted upside, maybe because we’re used to it, maybe because we see some advantages in it and even just staying safe.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: In it.
Yeah. It’s a way of hiding and it’s a way of getting a corrupt sense of superiority and it’s often, we come by it honestly, we’ve often watched a parent do it. We’ve, you know, it’s a, it’s a tempting one.
Monica Packer: You know, Julie, you’ve talked about martyrdom a lot with women. I’m sure that’s one of the big obstacles.
You can talk more about that or any others that you see getting in the way of this partnership.
Dr. Julie Hanks: Yeah, what comes to my mind is are the larger social obstacles. So Jennifer’s talking a lot about psychological obstacles within the couple relationship, you know, there is the expectation that. Men do certain things and women do certain things and women have moved into the workforce more readily than men have moved into the home front.
And so there’s a large imbalance in workload. Even when both couples work full time, women tend to do the bulk of work. The unpaid work. And even when, even when there’s a stay at home, uh, dad and a working mom, often the bulk is still on the woman. So there’s this resistance to men doing unpaid work, mostly because it’s not valued in our society.
Unpaid work is not equally valued in our society. And that’s a huge barrier. Because nobody wants to, you know, who wants to do it? And society has assigned women to do the less valuable work. And so reframing paid work and unpaid work as equally valuable. And that time spent taking care of a sick child is just as valuable as time spent, you know, leading a multimillion dollar corporation.
And we, we have a hard time. Seeing that. And so those are some societal barriers to creating partnership at home. Those larger societal expectations get in the way.
Monica Packer: Well, that makes so much sense. I just finished reading today, actually, this book called invisible women. Have
you
Dr. Julie Hanks: read that? Both of you too.
It’s so good. It’s one of my, one of my favorites. I recommend it all the time. It’s yeah, it’s heartbreaking. It’s heartbreaking.
Monica Packer: That’s how I felt. It was both heartbreaking and maddening. And I thought of both of you as I was reading the whole thing, but even, you know, the GDP made that choice on purpose to not include unpaid labor.
And so it makes sense that this is coming from all directions and it becomes so internalized where we’re almost saying, no, this is the standard and we want to. Hold up the standard.
Next up, we will hear more tips from these amazing women on how to shift to the partnership model. But first, let’s take a quick break to hear
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Monica Packer: But now let’s speak to the woman who are, who are ready for more. And these, and these, and these marriages who are ready for more, I mean, more intimacy, more connection, more value, more collaboration, more strengths. I mean, the list goes on and on. Where do they start? That’s overwhelming. Any go to tips for Dr.
Hanks? Oh, where to start? It really depends on where they are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we can’t have like a sit down with each person for, yeah, really a lot of times it starts with education, the education about unpaid labor and paid labor education about invisible labor, the mental and emotional labor about development, like Jennifer was saying.
Dr. Julie Hanks: So there’s kind of this education process where. Paradigms are shifting so they can see things that they haven’t seen before. So often I start with just kind of educating about different concepts and different ways of thinking about your relationship and the part that you play in it, you know, and that’s the part that I think it’s easier to be stuck than to see.
Monica Packer: I mean, we just talked about that book. It was heartbreaking to be educated. Right. Yeah. And it’s, it’s a barrier for sure, but that makes total sense. You got to start there. Knowledge is power. Anything to add to that, Dr. Finlayson Fyfe? I’m sure we’ll have more back and forth on this. There’s many tips. No, it’s true.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: I’m just thinking about that idea because until you can see it, you can’t change it and, and you can’t recognize its impact. A lot of women feel like in this one down position and they’ve just taken it as, as There’s something wrong with me. You know, I’m, um, It feels like a lack of choice. You’ve both talked about that.
Monica Packer: Like you’re stuck. I remember talking to my dad who was saying, I just don’t understand feminism or this whole critique. It doesn’t make any sense. And I borrowed that, I can’t say, Eloise Bell essay that was written back in, I think, the 90s or the 80s where she was talking about. Going to church and imagining seeing on the stand all women and the men were got their diaper bags and their children and the women were passing the sacrament and mother in heaven and her daughter who came and just so I was explaining that story to my dad and then I remember saying to him, you know, and on Thursday night, there’s going to be a Depression, you know, a homemaking on depression for the men.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: My dad just started to laugh because it’s sort of this recognition that there’s this downward pressure that’s very hard to see at times and it comes out in your, in your mental health. And so it can be, you can feel like I’m broken when you’re not. But I think a place to start more on the interpersonal level or within yourself is to look for this one down feeling, And to understand it as an expression of a relationship dynamic than something individual and specific to you.
Right? Now, that doesn’t mean there’s nothing you can do when you’re dependent on everybody else, per se. But that, this isn’t about you being broken. You’re in a system that’s broken, very likely. Another thing to look at is, where are my resentments? This is a place where I think it’s, It’s really like, sometimes women will say to me, I don’t know what I want.
I never think about what I want. I have no practice in it. And I, I’m sure that’s absolutely true. But a lot of times your desires get expressed in the perverse form when there’s no room for your desires in resentment. So if you can look at your resentments, they’re trying to express something. Looking at your depression is often trying to express something that is not being Acknowledged and looked at and addressed.
And so the body’s actually in response or the resentment is a response in resentment is many keys to what you want, that you need more courage to address. Sometimes resentment is just indulgent. Sometimes it’s just about being a martyr and not taking responsibility for the choices that you have made.
Yeah. But often there’s something that needs to be addressed with more courage, more honesty. Until you can work out something that you really can live with and be comfortable with. And again, it takes courage often because the system’s not going to applaud you for it, but it is the pathway to more health and to a better marriage.
Marriage is due very badly under that resentment system.
Monica Packer: Yeah. We’re definitely moving into this with the end goal in mind, you know, of what we deeply want, which are, Better marriages, stronger families. Uh, so I’m hearing, you know, we start with education, we move into impact. To kind of see, like, how am I impacted by this?
And I love that, that, that trigger almost to pay attention to, like, where am I resentful? And then what’s next? Cause we can’t just stop with that. Julie, what do you think is next?
Dr. Julie Hanks: I, well, I think it’s identifying What you think, feel, want, and need and expressing that in your relationship in your marriage.
But it takes work to be able to look inside because women are often socialized to look outside and take care of others, but to practice looking inside. And, and I tell my clients, like at any moment, ask your, just stop and say, what do I think, feel, want, and need? And then who, who can I share that with? And in marriage.
You need to be asking for things, right? So if, if you’re feeling overwhelmed with something, you know, I feel, I feel overwhelmed by, you know, parenting. I, um, I need you to step up in these ways and be able to start that, that dialogue of, you know, parenting. Of open communication and, and knowing yourself and what you want.
Monica Packer: Okay. So we’re getting some clear steps here, education, look at the impact, get real about what you want and need and start to express that. Now let’s, let’s kind of talk about one big obstacle, which is kind of the elephant in the room, which I didn’t think about until just this moment, and it’s an unwilling.
Partner on the other side to this, I’m actually just going to read you a DM I got. Okay. Because I’m doing this little challenge right now about women, just like a self care challenge. So I’ll just read this to you. This woman said, I’ve recently realized that none of my needs are being met and it’s definitely affecting my daily attitude and relationships.
I tried talking to my husband and after implementing a few ideas, he says, I’m now acting high maintenance. It’s such a fine line of putting yourself first and attending to the kids in the house and appearing high maintenance while trying to attend to the kids in the house. And then she just had like a sad face and I was just like, where, where am I to, where are you to please come in and answer this.
Okay. So what, I mean, what do they do if they’re meeting resistance after they’ve expressed some needs and either the changes are not happening or the needs themselves are being criticized. And we’ll start with Jennifer and then we’ll go to Julie.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah. So, uh, there’s like so many layers. Okay. Let me just get this as simple as I can.
I think that what I hear in her question is the locus of control is outside of herself
Monica Packer: Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And I’m not going to deny that. And if you have a spouse that’s unwilling to confront their role in taking advantage of you, you’re in a tough spot. So I’m not pretending anything different than that. And the question that comes into my mind is, is the husband saying you’re high maintenance because he’s trying to dismiss and, and keep a change from happening that he doesn’t, he doesn’t want to be bothered.
He doesn’t really want a partnership. He just wants. A woman that will back up his show or is she saying you you have to provide me my happiness I really don’t know. This is what i’d be trying to figure out if i were sitting with the two of them
You
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: are supposed to make me happy. I have all these needs that are unfulfilled and you need to deliver on them You know, i’m basically is she doing something that’s asking extracting from others as opposed to How do I articulate this like?
Really standing up for something different and better. Now, again, this doesn’t guarantee a spouse who’s willing to go along, but the most important thing is that you’re shifting something in relationship to yourself, and your own desires, and your own legitimacy, and you are holding on to that in front of your partner.
If you’re waiting for them to grant it, you may wait forever. And see, we teach people how to relate to us. We teach people how much respect to give us based on how we relate to ourselves in front of them. And this is, you can be resentful all day long about the respect you don’t get from others, but you have enormous control.
Over how you are treated by how you relate to yourself. So I would be of course, looking at the larger dynamic, because if you have somebody who’s always pushing down on you, that’s important to see, because it may be very hard to address this within yourself, but that’s where she needs to stay focused is on her relationship to her own self and her own dignity.
Monica Packer: Yeah, it’s such a, I mean, it is a hard balance, just like she said, because like you said, the flip side is waiting for someone else to meet the needs and, but you also can’t do that all by yourself. So goodness, this is tricky, but I think even good marriages that both want this end goal of stronger partnerships face this discomfort.
Right. A hundred percent. Yeah. So Julie, what, what else can we add to this?
Dr. Julie Hanks: The one thing I help a lot of clients with is being able to tolerate other people’s discomfort and dissatisfaction and disapproval. And so in, if I were working that with that woman, along with, I love everything Jennifer said, I would help her say, Kind of.
Okay. So, so what, like he thinks you’re high maintenance does he get to define you, can you still keep doing what you need to do, even if he thinks that what and kind of explore, because in that well he thinks I’m high maintenance. So, she’s right, giving her. Her self worth and her self definition to her husband.
And, and he doesn’t deserve that. I mean, you know, we are in charge of that, like Jennifer was saying. And so being able to tolerate like, okay, so he thinks you’re high maintenance. So what you do, what you need to do. And you keep going and showing him like, this is important to me because everyone resists change in a, in a family system, people who want to make healthy changes are often, you know, punished in some way or resisted in some way.
And so I would, I would help her understand that, like, yeah, this is going to be really uncomfortable for him. And can you let him be uncomfortable because it’s going to help you grow and it’s going to help. Him grow.
Monica Packer: Hmm. That’s so beautifully said both of you. I think that gives us a lot of starting points.
And I think we’re just going to come home back to what you both have mentioned is, is starting by valuing yourself. And even though that seems so abstract, that really is the root of this, right?
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah. And sometimes I say, self respect is something you do. More than something you feel like you feel it later.
Monica Packer: Yeah,
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: you have to sort of do courageous things on your behalf Even if you question am I worthy of it because the feeling is something you’re accustomed to feeling But it’s an act of courage to do something that really will benefit you that will just like you do for a child You do so many things for children The acts of love are things you’re doing more than feeling when I got up at 2 a.
m. I never felt like it Yeah, so it’s but it’s an act of respect and love for the child and I think it’s towards ourselves also and I think that can help because a lot of times the feelings trail behind it and so It takes courage to change these dynamics and you find resistance in others. I mean, I, I’ve seen people in my life get stronger and I find resistance in myself.
Monica Packer: Sure.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And I am ashamed of it, but it’s true
Monica Packer: because it
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: means I have to grow also and I don’t want to grow anymore. I’m comfortable. Exactly. Exactly. So we find resistance in ourselves and in others and that’s just normal and I think the more you can see and accept that. In a way you can tolerate it better because you just know it comes along with the development.
Monica Packer: That’s coming, um, that’s bringing to mind this little situation I had with Brad. You know, Brad is, I, I’m really lucky in, in so many ways, but we were working on him just like, Saying what he thinks. We have kind of a reversal problem that way. And like one time he did and I was like, how dare you? Like, how dare you say what you actually think?
You know, and I had to stop and be like, Oh, I asked you to do this. Okay. And it makes, yeah, it’s, it’s stretching both sides of the partnership and it’s going to be uncomfortable. And I think one other thing is it’s going to take time. It’s going to take time.
So if. If we want to help them know where to start, Julie, what’s one doable way they can get started on this? And Jen, we’ll go to Jennifer too.
Dr. Julie Hanks: I go back to education, start reading books about partnerships, start reading books about partnerships. systems and about relationships and start educating yourself so you can see and, and have a language to put around these intangible experiences and dynamics.
And I think that that can be very helpful, especially if both parties are, are reading the same kinds of things and able to talk about it. So I would just, I would say education. And then secondly, I would say conversations. In my own marriage, this This partnership conversation has been going on for 32 years from the day that we got married with mostly led by me questioning like, wait, how come we’re doing it this way?
Well, wait, how come this is my job? Wait, how come? Yeah. And, and just having that dialogue. Just constantly going on. How are you feeling? How does it feel? Does this feel equitable? Oh, I’m overwhelmed. Okay. Let me pick up this more here and, and being able to grow together. So just having the ongoing conversation.
That’s wonderful. Thank you.
Monica Packer: And Jennifer, what about you? What would you say? I’m,
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: I’m always
Monica Packer: the
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: worst at the tangible, so I relate. I’m working on this. Anyway, I’m like, oh, what? I mean, yeah, I think it’s a little abstract still, but I think the more you can see, and it’s very much to Julie’s same point, the more you can see your part in your relationship dynamic, the more you can change it.
Because we’re so often in an equilibrium that we can’t even see how what we do creates the likelihood of our spouse doing the frustrating thing that they do, which makes us do the thing we do. So when you’re in it, it’s so hard to see it and you can see it in your friends more easily, like the, you know, how they might interact, but it’s harder to see in yourself.
So getting a wise third, third party, whether that’s a coach or a counselor or a good friend to say, like, even to your spouse. I see that we do this. What do you think my role is in it? And then you try not to get defensive and say how dare you when they answer yes, but you know But you know you’re trying to increase your intelligence Uh, because it hurts, it’s always uncomfortable to see yourself differently than you’ve seen yourself.
But that’s where
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: all the possibility is. And so looking for ways to expand your map of the, of the territory that you’re operating within is just going to liberate your ability to make new choices and create new realities.
Monica Packer: Oh, goodness. Both of you have really just increased this idea in my mind that it’s, it’s so worth it to get uncomfortable.
It’s so hard, but it’s so worth it. So I love that you’re both starting that. Let’s get clear eyed on this. And I actually have two great recommendations. On where they can start with education. You both have incredible podcasts. Jennifer, yours is brand new. Let’s start by hearing about your new podcast and then Julie.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah. Right. Well, I, yeah, I just started, well, I’ve, I’ve have an archive of all the interviews I’ve done with other people. Yes. Uh, I just started one called room for two where I’m doing couples coaching with couples anonymously who are bringing. their stories around exactly these kinds of issues and where I’m giving input.
It’s just another way to look at these principles that I’ve talked a lot about on the other podcast. Yeah. And watching them get applied in real stories and real situations because I think it’s another It’s a fun way for people to be able to see themselves and to make those concepts a little more understandable in the day to day of life.
And so it’s been a lot of fun so far, actually. It’s been really a fun way to let people have a free coaching session, get some input, but also share their story with other people.
Monica Packer: Well, I’m so excited for you, but I’m more excited for me and everybody else that we get that, that peek in. And you also have amazing courses and I will link to those, but I would encourage the woman to start with the art of desires.
Julie, let’s share about your podcast and you’ve got a new membership group too, and some courses as well.
Dr. Julie Hanks: Yeah. So ask Dr. Julie Hanks is a coaching session. It’s generally with individuals and it’s really about this process of understanding yourself, expressing and identifying your own needs and values and how to communicate in relationships.
So women’s self development is, is the theme. I also have a book, the assertiveness guide for women that has a lot of self reflection exercises. If you want to get to know yourself a little bit better. And then, yeah, I have a membership just to Dr. Julie Hanks membership where each month we go dive into a theme and you have access to all of my courses, access to a live Q and a download downloads and journal prompts based on that theme for the month and a private Facebook group.
So that’s been just a lot of fun to be able to work with more people and make a difference.
Monica Packer: Yeah. A community feel really makes a big difference. So my friends, I could talk to you too all day and this topic alone, I think we could probably speak for another two hours to it, but I I’m so grateful you take the time and thank you very much.
Thank you. Thanks
Monica Packer: Monica.
I hope this episode gave you the hug and kick in the pants that you need to grow. Both of these incredible guests that I still can’t believe they both agreed to be on here at the same time, Dr. Jennifer Finlayson Fyfe and Dr. Julie Hanks, they’ve been on the show several times, and we’ll be sure to link to all of the past episodes that they have been on with About Progress in the show notes, and we’ll also link to their podcasts, their courses, and more in the show notes.
I’m not going to share the progress pointers from this episode. This is where I share the notes that kind of sum up the episode without you having to take your own. And if you’re on the Go Getter newsletter, we are going to share the progress pointers and the do something challenge in a graphic form for you.
Number one. Okay. Bye. Relationships based in power dynamics create more suffering over time. The partnership model is where both spouses needs, wants, and contributions are equally valued, supported, and honored. Two, to shift to the partnership model, you first have to face how it’s affecting your relationship and uncover the obstacles that are getting in the way of partnership.
This knowledge is uncomfortable, but necessary. Three, to start, get educated on what true partnership can look like, pay attention to where you feel resentment and what part you are playing in the marriage dynamic, and then get in touch with what you want and need. And finally, four, as you move forward, communicate often with your spouse, teach your partner how to treat you, and both partners need to learn how to tolerate the discomfort this shift requires.
Have courage. That was jam packed, right? I’m amazed that I was able to whittle that down. So I hope that you enjoyed it. By the way, we always have full transcripts of every single episode on my website in the full show notes section. And you can find that by going to aboutprogress. com slash show notes.
The Do Something Challenge for this week, let’s not forget that both of these ladies said to get educated. So my Do Something Challenge for you is to listen to one episode from each of their podcasts, Room for Two, and Ask Dr. Julie Hanks. That is both of their podcasts.
When you do that, make sure you share it with me.
Thank you so much for listening to the show and for sharing it too. Now go and do something with what you learned today.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson Feist and Dr. Julie Hanks. Thank you so much for being on about progress. I think we’re in that little spot. We’re like, who’s going to talk first. I would love to feature your voice. Ahem.
